Large format camera manufacturing

[Richard Wasserman]

I recently sold a business that I had for about 25 years and need something else to do. I am in the early stages of thinking about manufacturing large and ultra large format cameras, possibly 8x10, 7x17, and 8x20 to start. I have some ideas for materials and techniques that I think would allow me to produce wood field cameras at a price point below Canham and Wisner. I have experience in custom wood and metal working, so the actual construction should not be a problem. My question is if the market can support another camera company. Does anyone know how many LF and ULF cameras are sold each year? I would not have to sell a huge number myself, but I don't want to proceed with this idea unless it has a reasonable chance to be a viable business as it would require a sizeable investment for machinery, space, etc. What do you all think? Thanks

Richard Wasserman

 

[SchwinnParamount]

I recently sold a business that I had for about 25 years and need something else to do. I am in the early stages of thinking about manufacturing large and ultra large format cameras, possibly 8x10, 7x17, and 8x20 to start. I have some ideas for materials and techniques that I think would allow me to produce wood field cameras at a price point below Canham and Wisner. I have experience in custom wood and metal working, so the actual construction should not be a problem. My question is if the market can support another camera company. Does anyone know how many LF and ULF cameras are sold each year? I would not have to sell a huge number myself, but I don't want to proceed with this idea unless it has a reasonable chance to be a viable business as it would require a sizeable investment for machinery, space, etc. What do you all think? Thanks

Richard Wasserman

No idea... Can I give you a hint though? CNC... That's right, CNC. Convert your woodshop equipment to take instruction from a computer and you'll gain so much in efficiencies that you'll be able to sell your cameras at a profit even if your selling price is way lower than the competition.

 

[Richard Wasserman]

You read my mind, CNC is just what I was thinking! Thanks

Richard

 

[Michael Kadillak]

What a great idea Richard. Clearly your prior experience in business management and machining puts you in the drivers seat. I honestly believe that recent positive events within the ULF arena present an excellent platform for a market penetration IF the product is competitively priced, is functional to the second power and is supported with excellent customer service.

Rather than hash it out here, lets continue this conversation off line. Drop me a note and we can talk at your convenience. I have some ideas to share with you.

Cheers!

 

[claytume]

Richard

I think it can work, Jim Chinn had sales lined up here on this forum but he couldn't deliver the product. I would dump 8x10 and start at 11x14 and up. From other comments on apug a 7x17 would sell well. Get the product and price point right with good service and you will sell. What quantities I don't know, look at Wisner, he had more orders than he could deliver.

Clayton

 

[bill schwab]

I am in the early stages of thinking about manufacturing...

Working on a similar project here as well Richard. Actually have been doing it quietly for some time as we don't want to get into what Jim did by getting ahead of ourselves. Have several very talented friends and business associates working on different aspects as well as someone putting up $ and all is looking good so far. Still, it is at the very early stages... market research, material suppliers, design, incorporation, etc. We estimate it may be a good year before we're ready to put something out there if it is even possible. The idea was much the same, to undercut current manufacturers by a substantial sum. However, after researching the subject to some length, it is becoming evident that it will be very hard to cut the price much even with CNC and make it worth our time. It is still our goal and we hope for the best. Before ever offering anything up for sale, we hope to get a couple prototypes into the hands of independant people who really use the cameras to put them through the paces and work-out bugs, etc. Those will be a couple of very expensive cameras! There are also several other things in the works that will target the needs of the LF and alt process crowd, a couple that will be offered much sooner than a camera.

I think there is still room Richard, especially for someone like you with prior experience building a business. All indications are that, although small, there is a growing need.

Bill

 

[eclarke]

Check out patents on cameras, there are a lot of them...Evan Clarke

 

[Daniel Grenier]

Having seen your terrific work, Richard, if I were you I'd conconcentrate all my time producing photographs - not cameras. Failing that, if your cameras are both attractive in quality and in price (not just one and not the other), then odds are likely in your favor. Either way, good luck in your "new life".

 

[jp80874]

My question is if the market can support another camera company. Thanks

Richard Wasserman

Richard,
I find these two quotes, obviously from different times, relevent to your question and very interesting. We read on APUG and in Viewcamera that the ULF market is growing, but I don't know that I have read that from someone who really knows. The age survey here is also interesting. I shoot 8x10 at age 66 and move the gear in a baby jogger. I would love to shoot a larger negative, but question will I be able to move a 12x20 around in the two to three years it might take to order and receive a new one?

“WISNER is a classical American camera made of mahogany or cherry, brass anodized aluminum and calfskin. They are among the most beautiful cameras made and do tend to attract attention when used in public. WISNERS carry a lifetime factory guarantee. These are best value in wooden field cameras, and most widely used American brand. They are popular throughout the world. BRUCE’S is one of the largest WISNER dealers. We are the only store which stocks the 11x14 and larger sizes. Factory orders usually take 12 to 15 months. The factory is good at making cameras but not at all good at estimating delivery times. Do not believe them if they tell you they will have your camera in a few weeks or months. They won’t. Call us and we will probably have the camera you want in stock. 212 807 1403. For specs and photos CLICK HERE. For prices call us.”
Dead Link Removed

“The reopening of the Wisner factory did not happen in Sept. as had been announced. This should not surprise most of you. They are late with this as with everything else. If they do reopen, sometime in 2006, they say, they will accept orders from dealers and old customers only. We do not anticipate any improvement in their inability to meet delivery deadlines. In addition, prices will be raised considerably. Quite honestly, we doubt that the Wisner Co. will ever be back in business. Mr. Wisner seems to have lost interest in his business (about 10 years ago).
We have new Wisner cameras in stock in two sizes. The 11x14 P, and 12x20 P . The P model is their lightest weight ULF camera. When these are sold we will not order any more Wisner cameras. The problem is not with the quality, which, though there are occasional problems, is quite good considering the price. The problem with Wisner is Wisner himself, who cannot come up with an accurate estimate of delivery time. Cameras promised for 3-6 weeks could take years to get and often were just never made no matter how long we waited. We ordered a 5x7 Wisner traditional in February of 2004. We have yet to receive it. This is more than ridiculous. The wear and tear on us as well as on the customers has become just too much. In addition, Wisner prices will go up at least 30% if they reopen. The cameras, in all honesty, may not be worth those prices. So, sadly, we are no longer Wisner dealers. We like Ron Wisner and wish him well.
For those of you who want a great camera without all the Wisner bull, we now have Lotus cameras available.”
http://stores.ebay.com/BRUCES-FIELD-CAMERA-STORE/WISNER-AND-LOTUS-UPDATES.html

John Powers

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

Richard,

It's certainly possible to do what you suggest, that is the basic business model that has been used by Canham and Phillips, and possibly Wisner for their companies, and they all have been successful at making cameras.

I would caution you against aiming for the best price approach, and instead concern yourself with making a quality product that performs at the level necessary for serious photographers. Then, figure out if you can bring it in at a good competitive price point. The reason I say this is that you cannot compete with all the 50-100 year old cameras on Ebay, and most of them are seriously compromised in some manner in terms of rigidity or capabilities, and that's essentially what you would have to do to make a low brow camera that comes in substantially below the Wisner/Canham/Phillips price points.

I believe Canham now uses CNC, and I know Phillips does, so you are not going to be introducing anything new in terms of production efficiency to the market in this respect, so that alone will not enable you to make a cheaper camera that maintains the quality level of the other makers.

I think that having another maker in the game would be great, and I look forward to the possibilities of more people making cameras. I hope that it is possible to make a camera in a sustainable manner that works well, and breaks some new design ground, as the Phillips cameras have done.


---Michael

 

[Ole]

It suddenly struck me that a possible niche market could be custom modifications and parts - I'd like another lensboard or two for my antique plate camera. And what about a film holder or three for it?

 

[Petzi]

I see no point in using ordinary wood for making cameras. Metal is better in every way, except maybe it feels colder when touched. I don't think the world needs another wooden LF camera.

 

[jp80874]

Esthetically I could not disagree with you more, though I am happy that both views can play here. I was interested in the reaction on APUG to the 4x5 and 8x10 Gandolfi cameras built of MDF (medium density fiber) currently offered on eBay.

I think of my metal Linhof Technikardan as an excellent machine, but it does not have the beauty and visual warmth of my equally technical 8x10 wooden Phillips. I doubt that I would buy a larger camera in a material other than wood.

John Powers

 

[Jim Chinn]

I am still around and still plan on bringing a line of cameras to market sometime this summer. Dealing with elderly parents illnesses and an injury of my own last year put everthing on hold.

As Clay pointed out I had several sales lined up but I returned deposits when the time frame became questionable. I also built a couple of prototypes and decided on changes to the chassis which took some time. I still have a few people who did not want the refund and will wait for the cameras. When I start sales I will not take depoists to begin with but work on a first come first serve basis and have a couple extra cameras available at any given time. As far as a timetable goes I am not going to give a firm date. But you will hear about it first here on APUG.

My goal is to get more people shooting ULF film and enjoy the formats. $6000-$7000 dollar cameras once you add a couple of film holders are not going to bring a lot of sales or appreciably grow the ranks of ULF shooters.. There are already 4 companies making cameras in that price range.

A week does not go by when you do not read posts on various forums about people wanting to get into ULF at a reasonable cost. Most of these people would be happy with a good used camera but availability is pretty slim. Used cameras many times require extensive work to make them useable and holders are a crap shoot with older ULF holders from different mfgs varrying widely on tolerances and specifications.

My plan has always been to build a camera for the cost conscious market. If someone can afford a new Wisner or Canham 12x20 they are not going to be interested in my cameras.
If someone is a serious photographer on a limited budget my cameras will meet their needs.

To reach that market you need a quality camera that will sell for about $2400 for 11x14 and 7x17, $2800 for 12x20. Include a pair of film holders for that price. Design the holders share a common T-dimension and thickness across all formats. That would allow someone to shoot a variety of formats with the same camera and a set of inserts without having to carry a an extra back for each format. An 11x14 shooter could work in 11x14, 5x14 and 10x12. Such a universal holder design would allow one to buy a camera with an 11x17 back and shoot both 7x17 and 11x14 with the same camera and a revolving back.

Design the film holders so extras can be bought for about 1/2 what current standard holders sell for.

Build the front of the camera with a 9" lens board and include an adaptor for smaller boards like Deardorf or Wista. Make the front strong enough to be able to hold up a big lens in a copal 3 or one of Jim Galli's big brassies.


It all takes time.

 

[rbarker]

Let me add a few encouraging words. IMHO, the "market" can always absorb another well-designed, well-made, and well-supported wooden camera. Or, one made out of metal, for that matter. It's a "different strokes" sort of thing, I think.

But, I would add that the nature of this market calls for a somewhat modified business plan - one in which the "art" of the product (its design and build quality) is of greater importance than the typical underlying profit motive. Profit is still essential, obviously, in order to sustain the business, but it can share the limelight with aesthetics.

Thus, my suggestion, similar to Michael's, would be to approach the concept in such a way that you'll be pleased with the effort of bringing a product to market, perhaps with some interesting and useful innovations, at a price point that is attractive to some segment of the market. Then, the effort will be successful from your perspective, even if you don't instantly have a two-year waiting list.

 

[BBarlow690]

Last time I was at Richard Ritter's, he had stacks of 7x17 and other size backs glued and ready for finishing, and he was excited that he thinks he may have a source for carbon fiber rods for the focusing beds and rails, rather than aircraft aluminum, saving more weight. Richard appears mostly on-track to produce his ULF fairly soon. I think his first run in 30 cameras, with backs made to order in any of multiple sizes.

I have no financial interest in what he's doing. I just want him to get this ULF stuff going so he can turn to an ultralight 5x7...

 

[bill schwab]

To reach that market you need a quality camera that will sell for about $2400 for 11x14 and 7x17, $2800 for 12x20. Include a pair of film holders for that price.

Dreaming is free Jim!

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I think it wouldn't hurt to have another manufacturer of filmholders in the market for ULF and custom sizes. Maybe instead of trying to build all custom sizes, you might figure out which are the most popular and see if there is a way to concentrate on those and achieve some economy of scale to bring down the price a bit.

Alternately, see what's become of the patents for the Mido II holders (someone showed up on eBay a year or two ago with Mido holders in odd formats saying something about bringing them back), and maybe look into manufacturing them for 8x10" and larger.

Also--an interesting thing I saw on Glennview, but like most such things on that site, just too expensive: a 22-sheet bag mag for 4x5". It looked essentially like a 12 sheet plate mag that had been adapted for film septums, and 22 was just the number of film septums that fit.

Another interesting thing that I've seen on the same site and elsewhere--custom format conversions for the Sinar P. I think Jorge has been working on one. It would be very easy to make 7x17, 8x20, and other custom format kits for the P and P2. It's just a back and a bellows with a Sinar front frame and the rear tilt and swing axes marked on the groundglass. The back attaches to a simple post on the P rear standard bearer.

 

[Monophoto]

I would be concerned about how elastic the market is, and whether there is room for additional manufacturing capacity. Growing market share in an expanding market is fun and exciting, but growing share by taking it away from existing, entrenched suppliers can be really difficult. It forces you to adopt one of two strategies. One is to compete for share on the basis of differentiating product features - that's a good thing regardless of whether the market is stable or expanding. The other is to compete on the basis of price, and that is almost certain to become ugly. And frankly, with a specialty product like an ULF camera, I would be concerned that it may not be a viable strategy iif you want to be a player for the long haul.

Within the last couple of years, both Wisner and Phillips made announcements about not accepting new orders until they can work through their respective backlogs. That suggests that the market for new cameras may exceed the current manufacturing capacity, and that there could be room for more suppliers. That's good news for new entrants.

Another thing about this that strikes me is that there are three components to a successful ULF venture - the camera, film holders, and film. It seems that Ilford and others are listening to the market and offering film on a controlled basis. It will probably always be a special order item, but at least it appears that the manufactures acknowlege that a market exists that they seem to be interested in serving.

But from everything I have read, it seems that the real choke point is in the area of holders. The number of suppliers of ULF holders is smaller than the number of camera manufacturers, and prices are extremely high foir what amount to custom-crafted products. Also, there are issues withi compatiblity of holders - unlike the smaller formats, holders for ULF cameras are not universal and must be customized to match the camera. That leads me to suggest that a good market differentiator might be to make both a camera and quasi-mass-produced compatible holders.

And having solved the problems to get started making holders for your camera, it would probably not be too difficult to then offer after-market holders for competing cameras. You may not want to do that, but at least you would have the option.

 

[bart Nadeau]

A real nitch in the market just waiting to be filled is for more reasonably priced film holders, 11x14 and bigger.

 

[Petzi]

Esthetically I could not disagree with you more,

For me, a camera is to make photos. Yes it would be nice if the camera looked good. But I don't buy it to put it in the vitrine to impress visitors. Not even if it is a 11x14" or 8x20". Therefore, a camera that I would buy would have to be made out of metal or some other appropriate material. This is an engineering decision. The camera has to be precise, durable, versatile etc., and I do not see how wood could satisfy these requirements better than the right choice of metal.

Wood can be compressed and will become much harder, more like metal, but that's a different story.

 

[Dan Fromm]

For me, a camera is to make photos. Yes it would be nice if the camera looked good. But I don't buy it to put it in the vitrine to impress visitors. Not even if it is a 11x14" or 8x20". Therefore, a camera that I would buy would have to be made out of metal or some other appropriate material. This is an engineering decision. The camera has to be precise, durable, versatile etc., and I do not see how wood could satisfy these requirements better than the right choice of metal.

Wood can be compressed and will become much harder, more like metal, but that's a different story.

Um, er, ah, Petzi, please come a little close so I can hit you a good one with my Speed Graphic. The blow will hurt you more than it will the camera.

More seriously, successful LF cameras have been made from wood ever since photography was invented. Your requirements -- precise, durable, versatile etc. -- have been met with wooden cameras.

 

[Nick Zentena]

One advantage of wood is how easy it is to fix/change afterwards. Some time in the last 50 years my Ansco 8x10 had front swing added. From looking at the addition I bet all it took was a rusty chisel.

 

[Petzi]

More seriously, successful LF cameras have been made from wood ever since photography was invented. Your requirements -- precise, durable, versatile etc. -- have been met with wooden cameras.

There has got to be a reason why no camera intended for professional use (like Sinar, Arca, Linhof, Horseman etc.pp.) was ever made of wood? At least not in the last 50 years? Yes I guess someone can dig out some oddball camera that was. Your Speed Graphic is all metal, right? Someone made an odd view camera of carbon fiber. Are you using wooden shutters? Why not?

 

[Dan Fromm]

There has got to be a reason why no camera intended for professional use (like Sinar, Arca, Linhof, Horseman etc.pp.) was ever made of wood? At least not in the last 50 years? Yes I guess someone can dig out some oddball camera that was. Your Speed Graphic is all metal, right? Someone made an odd view camera of carbon fiber. Are you using wooden shutters? Why not?

Mahogany, you ignorant clot. Gandolfi. Wisner. Lotus. Ebony. Canham. Wista. ...