Lack of repair reports for electronic SLRs: What is the cause?

paul ron

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back in the day, we had several sites dedicated to camera repair. so as for not enough "reports" isnt true. if you do a search, you can find repairs for just about any camera you want, plus butcus manuals still a great source for manuals.

of all the repair sites, two still remain and a couple individuals have sites still active. there is tons of repair info out there in the way back searches.

the old kyp site...

Classic Camera Repair Forum - Index

Classic Camera Repair Forum - Index
kyp.hauslendale.com

the new resurrected kyp site...

Classic Camera Repair Forum - Index

Classic Camera Repair Forum - Index
hauslendale.com

i dont have the other links on hand but if i find them ill post them.
.
btw i have posted a ton of info here and other sites with a few other dedicated users who may not be here anymore for repairs and restorations of cameras and equipment, sold the business... etc.

i think the diy repairs have dwindled over the years as electronics took over and repaimen just gave up posting due to age, retirement n lack of interest.
 
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Andreas Thaler

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paul ron said:
back in the day, we had several sites dedicated to camera repair. so as for not enough "reports" isnt true. if you do a search, you can find repairs for just about any camera you want, plus butcus manuals still a great source for manuals.
Click to expand...

That would be nice, but where can I find repair reports for the F4, F3, T90, and 9000/7000 AF? I don't know of any sites for that.

Butkus has user manuals, but they are not helpful for repairs.

I'd be grateful for any links
 

paul ron

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butkus does have repair manuals.
a quick google search came up with these links as well as dozens of others...

Nikon | Service Manuals | Learn Camera Repair

learncamerarepair.com

Nikon Service Manuals, Repair Manuals, Part Lists -free download-

Nikon Service Manuals, Nikon Repair Manuals, Nikon Part Lists -free download-
ss-it.de

Nikon f-4 F4 F4S Repair and Support System

View and Download Nikon f-4 instruction manual online.
manualmachine.com

do the search... there are a ton of sources for repair manuals and sites dedicated to diy repairs as well as people like us posting their repair logs here and other photo sites.

btw ive noticed there are far less collectors and restorers than previous years that may be a contributing factor why people arent as enthusiastic about diy repairs. its a great hobby but does require some speciality tools, lots of patience, and cognitive skills... is there an app for that?

as i said before... electronics are near impossable to repair. chips arent labeled with standard part numbers so replacement is out of the question... oh i forgot propriatary software built into the camera electronics is another problem all together.

having donor cameras is costly. those flex pcbs have their own problems with edge connectors n tearing, lcd display edge connectors deteriorate beyong repair... mechanical cameras are much easier to work on. so having auto this n that has basically killed the diy repairs.
 
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Andreas Thaler

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I'm not talking about service manuals, but rather repair reports for the SLRs mentioned. I can only find my own on the web, which is entertaining but doesn't help me much.


Anything that is difficult has few fans.


Of course, electronics can be repaired. Not ICs (which you can replace) or software-controlled SLRs, but the things that are most commonly defective: contact problems, corrosion, electrolytic capacitors.

I would like to refer you to my corresponding reports on this in the forum.
 

wiltw

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It seems to me that one of the fundamental concepts behind any perception of 'lack of repair reports' is that things that are 90% mechanical are 'fixed' when you disassembled, clean, reassemble and lubricate timing clockwork, shutter mechanisms, winding assemblies, etc. The electrical/electronic stuff is a relatively small part of camera repair (from cameras in the 1970's and earlier), and the 'success rate' is not so impeded by lack of electronic modules with complex circuitry. Very analogous to fixing cars from the pre-1980 period with little reliance on electronic modules with computerized circuitry. Some buisnesses used to be able to FABRICATE mechanical pieces for repairs or modification.

Now things are very highly electronic in nature, with less and less reliance on mechanical assemblies. And the electronic modules are things needed from the manufacturer, and the pool of used equipment for salvageable replacement modules is not yet very large, so the opportunities for successfully 'fixing' things grows less and less. Cameraa from the 1990's are somewhere in the continuum between 90% mechanical and the 90% electronic, and their pool of used gear for salvageable electronic modules is 'in between' paucity and reasonable supply. And the repair reports get scarcer and scarcer as the electronic complexity increases and the supply of spare parts declines. Just my surmise.

Generic ICs can be replaced...the custom ICs that make up the intelligence/programming cannot be purchased off the shelf, and the flexible circuits that they are mounted on can be very difficult to replace components mounted on them, due to the use of multi-layer wiring and soldering. One needs to be able to replace entire modules, not simply ICs. That gets us back to the relative non-availability of these modules. I was able to get my Canon 5D 'classic' repaired when its main circuit failed, because there were lots of them sold, and so lots of them are in the spares pool to scavenge electronic modules. Try the same with a Canon R6 when Canon stops supporting their repaair.
 
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Andreas Thaler

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Spare parts are available in abandoned SLRs of the same type; you can even replace ICs, provided the board version is correct and you have mastered the necessary soldering techniques.

I'm not saying everything is possible, but definitely more than is generally assumed. It's a question of motivation and available technical documentation.

But as I said, it's often not the electronic components that break, but the peripherals.

I just bought a Minolta 9000 AF on eBay for a very low price with an „electronic defect“. Basing on my previous experience with the 9000 I bet it can be repaired.

Or perhaps the lack of repair reports is due to the fact that „electronics“ is equated with a „disposable product“, meaning that repairs aren't even worth it. Unlike a mechanical device, which is more highly valued.
 

film4Me

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Andreas Thaler said:
Or perhaps the lack of repair reports is due to the fact that „electronics“ is equated with a „disposable product“, meaning that repairs aren't even worth it. Unlike a mechanical device, which is more highly valued.
Click to expand...
I think "Repair" documents/reports are associated with Warranty repairs. But even then, they would be "disassembly/assembly" procedures and the replacement of "whole unit" parts. Those company warranty repair documents might be handy for you just the same, if you can procure them. No idea how you could acquire any, other than contacting each company's warranty repair department, or past dealer warranty repairers to find out if any still exist.
 
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Andreas Thaler

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Presumably, these documents for discontinued products, like original spare parts, are disposed of by the manufacturers. Or archived forever.

This is a real shame for fans of older technology, of course. But from an economic point of view, it's understandable.

Perhaps you should spend your next vacation near an waste paper or an electronic waste disposal site
 
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film4Me

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"Service and Repair", the documents are called. You could either write or email Canon and other brands, and ask if they have any copies they could forward to you, or search for their dealers who did warranty repairs. There might be one close to you perhaps.
 
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Andreas Thaler

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Fortunately, I'm well-stocked in that regard.

What I'm interested in are reports of repairs, and I can't find any in my range.

Regarding the Minolta 7000 and 9000 AF, I'm probably the only one on the web - the work of @ogtronix here in the forum excluded - who can contribute anything. That doesn't mean I'm the only one working on it.

And that's a shame, because these cameras, or others mentioned, are not hopeless cases in the event of damage.
 
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paul ron

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@thaler... as i said, there were plenty of dedicated sites like kyp once upon a time mostly comprised of pro repairmen and serious hobbiests alike that posted their repair logs and offered help to anyone in the forums.... but the majority of cameras being repaired were mechanical.

most of those sites are gone as are the repairmen since the dawn of digital and the heavy dependance on automatic electronic controled cameras that also required software. you may be one of a very small number who would tackle such challenges.

perhaps you should help kyp get back in action by participating and encouraging others to get involved? maybe take all your reports and post them on your site as a reference for others to use?... start your own repair site for these cameras?

Classic Camera Repair Forum - Index

Classic Camera Repair Forum - Index
hauslendale.com

Classic Camera Repair Forum - Index

Classic Camera Repair Forum - Index
kyp.hauslendale.com

i wish i could find Nelson's and Reichert in the wayback machine. we had several amazing sites full of information and some dedicated sites for just certain cameras like retinas n ikontas, holgas, kieves, folders n tlrs... usually run by serious collectors n restorers.

good luck with your quest.... but from my experiance with these electronic cameras, they are disposable, built with planned obsolescence.
 

paul ron

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film4Me said:
That looks to be very handy, thanks for posting.
Click to expand...

and i hope more people like you would post there n maybe get that site running again. the original site has an amazing archive, try cruising around n see whats available?

btw i just checked kyp below, n there are a few links to other similar sites and a couple i clicked on are still active

Classic Camera Repair Forum - Index

Classic Camera Repair Forum - Index
kyp.hauslendale.com

also see the manuals section there? go through the forums... youll see exactly what thaler is looking for.... dedicated people restoring trash bin cameras, bringing them back to life to be enjoyed.


btw if you search this site, when it was known as APUG, youd find a ton of repair logs. maybe there is an archive section still here?
 
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Andreas Thaler

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paul ron said:
also see the manuals section there? go through the forums... youll see exactly what thaler is looking for.... dedicated people restoring trash bin cameras, bringing them back to life to be enjoyed.
Click to expand...

No, that's not what I'm looking for.

I don't mean to criticize, but I find many questions, assumptions, and vague hints there, but no project reports or instructions with photo documentation and source references like the ones I do. There's similar stuff on Reddit, and I don't really get much use out of it.

I want substance, a structured approach, analysis, and evaluation of my own work. I'm convinced that's the only way it makes sense, for myself and others. Working on complex SLRs leaves no other approach if you want to invest your time wisely.

It's like a scientific project; I have to distinguish between proven facts, assumptions, and speculation, and of course, I have to name the work of others. Everything else is just tinkering. This is fun, but it is a different approach

At least, that's my standard, and one I hope to fulfill myself.
 
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Andreas Thaler

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Now you could say that Thaler from Vienna is arrogant, thinks he knows the right way, and sets himself up as a reference, but that's not my motivation. I want to do solid work that also helps others repair their camera equipment using DIY techniques. And I think that only makes sense in the way I have described it.

You're always confronted with the unknown, tinkering with a „virtual bomb“, you can make a mistake at any time, and hours of work can only be accounted for as learning, experience, and acquiring spare parts. I want all of that, but I want to keep control about it as far as possible.

It's a topic I enjoy discussing and that interests me greatly.

I also welcome feedback on my work and its presentation:

Photo equipment from the 1980s: Repair projects and recommendations

I would like to bring together a selection of my previous contributions here in the hope that they will help readers with their work or inspire them to get involved in repairs. It is always worth trying to repair something, because if you do nothing, a camera or lens will definitely remain...
www.photrio.com
 
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Andreas Thaler

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And when it comes to DIY repairs, all the qualities that are better controlled in social life come into play: stubbornness, obstinacy, obsession, willpower, intransigence, inflexibility, ambition, not resting until the problem is solved.

I spent days and nights working on it until I finally got a Minolta 9000 AF to green in my repair log yesterday evening. My wife wasn't thrilled, but I succeeded
 
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Andreas Thaler

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Yes, that's true!

Once, as I've already told you, I just wanted to go to the hairdresser in Vienna's 7th district where all these photo shops are concentrated and came back with a brand-new Nikkor 400/3.5 Ai-S lens
 

koraks

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paul ron said:
btw if you search this site, when it was known as APUG, youd find a ton of repair logs. maybe there is an archive section still here?
Click to expand...

No on-topic/camera-related threads were archived; it all migrated into Photrio. If it's not on Photrio now, it wasn't on APUG back then. Some stuff disappeared like the Soapbox, but that wasn't camera/photo-related and its disappearance/discontinuance has nothing to do with Photrio vs APUG. APUG content simply merged into what is now Photrio.
 

Nimbus62

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Hi, just come back from small trip. Tablett failure and no internet connectivity...

From my point of view, the main problem with lake of Repair report with Electronic SLR is, first, the lake of manufacturer documentation and tools.
Second: many time the tools where proprietary and where destroyed.
Third: documentation are not a maintenance methodology or rebuild methodology. Need also to identify the worn area and what can be solved or not..

At the moment works exclusively on Minolta XM (in the past XE and Leica R3)
main problem is the lake of documentation about Minolta tools developped specificaly for this XM body.

We have only one document (XM service manual - have to clean it and adjust the document to see all pages 100%.)
This document do not cover all versions and releases (2 versions, 5 releases; 3 electronics releases).

Working on some body, I dicover that the How to adjust from the manufacturer is not exaustive and need practice to solv/adjust/save some old and worn body.
What is not documented is the method to check /adjust with minimum disassembly.
Need to do reverse ingeniering, and imagine tools to replace the AE reference finder (to adjust body) and Reference body to adjust finders...
I also built a Finder bench to be able to qualify a finder without opening it (also used for investigation and adjustment).

I have the idea to publish but needs to improve some method and need a lot of effort to document all works.

I works also on other domain : Electronic control unit for BMW gear box , same problem: no documentation from manufacturer, need complete reverse engeniering. build test bench. etc..
When you add on top the software dimension... need additional tools: Eprom programmer, computer with communication software, logic analyser, etc...
The tooling dimension is very very important and many time need to build tools (software + harware).

It is mass production products. The where replaced every 3 to 10 years by manufacturers and now we want to maintain them alive.... after 40 to 50 years....
We are totally in an oposite strategy compared to the manufacturer. Need some energy...
 

Peláez

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Hi Andreas. I've read about the repairs you've done on Canon T90 cameras and was wondering if you've ever had a camera that, once the shutter was released, displayed the internal message HELP and the external message EEE. Thank you.
 
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Andreas Thaler

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Peláez said:
Hi Andreas. I've read about the repairs you've done on Canon T90 cameras and was wondering if you've ever had a camera that, once the shutter was released, displayed the internal message HELP and the external message EEE. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Yes, unfortunately.

This indicates a problem with the shutter.

It could be the rear shutter curtain, which is stuck due to a rotten sticky damper. Or the magnets (I suspect).

See the current status of the discussion here:

Canon T90 shows the error messages HELP and EEE: Tracking down the last major problem

One of the most common problems with the T90 is still unsolved: the shutter blocking, accompanied by the messages „HELP“ in the viewfinder and „EEE“ on the display. Until now, I assumed that the cause of this problem was dirty magnets for controlling the shutter. The T90 has two of these...
www.photrio.com


The C & C Associates Troubleshooting Guide for the T90 recently appeared online.

It's a stroke of luck; it describes the problem in detail.

I'm currently working on Minolta, so I'll take a look at it later.

 
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