Kowa Six Shutter Button Issue (and Internal Foam Replacement?)

[Jeremy Mudd]

Thanks for all of your information Jeremy. I figured I'd give it a try. Hopefully I won't destroy the camera and at the least Ill learn something.

I was able to open the camera. Here are a few photos of what I found. The film counter does seem to jam. When it jams the shutter button actuator doesn't line up (see picture). If I spin the film counter (without film in the camera it recreates the jam as well).

Any next step suggestions. Thanks for your help.

Photo 1: Jamming position of shutter button actuator (yellow arrow)
Photo 2: Position of shutter button actuator aligned properly (green arrow)
Photo 3: The position of the film counter, springs, etc when it jams

No worries. Glad that I can help a little.

Did you check to ensure the lens was cocking and working correctly by firing it off-camera a few times?

Without having the camera in front of me and watching it go thru the sequence and messing around with it a bit, its difficult to really give you any next steps here.

Jeremy

 

[ZiaSun]

No worries. Glad that I can help a little.

Did you check to ensure the lens was cocking and working correctly by firing it off-camera a few times?

Without having the camera in front of me and watching it go thru the sequence and messing around with it a bit, its difficult to really give you any next steps here.

Jeremy

Thanks Jeremy,

I haven't done that yet. Is there a write up already on how to get the lens on and off and fire it (ill look back in the thread but didn't see it first glance)? That would be good to check.

I think I may have just figure it out, not sure. But when I help this little spring along, the shutter button actuators fall into the correct position. I think the spring is just worn out.

 

[Jeremy Mudd]

Not certain if the lens is contributing or not, but ruling out possible causes is always good when trying to sort stuff like this out.

To remove the lens, its preferred to do so with the entire system in the cocked state.

There's a breach lever near the lens on the non-winder side. Pull that back. Then turn the silver collar on the camera that holds the lens on counter-clockwise (when looking at the front of the camera) until the red mark is at the top. The lens should then come off.

To fire it, there is a small pin you depress while gently giving the two rotating pens that are opposite each other a slight nudge. To cock it, move the rotating pins back to their original position. If any of that doesn't work or it has issues, that could be a culprit here.

Jeremy

 

[nosmok]

I have a bricked 6MM body, and a couple lenses that seem to work that are off the body (one of them came with the body). The big issue I have is that there appears to be no way to mount the lenses to the body-- the mounting ring would need to get about another 1/4" - 1/2" of counter-clockwise turn for the mounts to go on the right way. Is there an interlock that prevents this if the body isn't cocked? I see only one screw on the ring holding it in its track, but it's JIS and I don't have a JIS screwdriver set (that may be a good thing).

 

[ZiaSun]

Not certain if the lens is contributing or not, but ruling out possible causes is always good when trying to sort stuff like this out.

To remove the lens, its preferred to do so with the entire system in the cocked state.

There's a breach lever near the lens on the non-winder side. Pull that back. Then turn the silver collar on the camera that holds the lens on counter-clockwise (when looking at the front of the camera) until the red mark is at the top. The lens should then come off.

To fire it, there is a small pin you depress while gently giving the two rotating pens that are opposite each other a slight nudge. To cock it, move the rotating pins back to their original position. If any of that doesn't work or it has issues, that could be a culprit here.

Jeremy

Thanks for your time Jeremy. Last few questions

Are the rotating pins on the lens supposed to retract the full distance on their own once nudged? I have to nudge them the entire way. They pins move rather easily but not on their own. If I nudge them along the two parts of the shutter close.

Does a scratched mirror affect image quality? While I was in there I noticed the mirror isn't in great shape. Including a photo here.

Thanks again.

 

[Jeremy Mudd]

I have a bricked 6MM body, and a couple lenses that seem to work that are off the body (one of them came with the body). The big issue I have is that there appears to be no way to mount the lenses to the body-- the mounting ring would need to get about another 1/4" - 1/2" of counter-clockwise turn for the mounts to go on the right way. Is there an interlock that prevents this if the body isn't cocked? I see only one screw on the ring holding it in its track, but it's JIS and I don't have a JIS screwdriver set (that may be a good thing).

Whew, there sure are a lot of different Kowa questions in one thread!

What do you mean by "bricked"? If it is dead and no longer working, I wouldn't recommend mounting any good lenses to it.

That said, if it is working and its fully cocked, the one tip I have learned for mounting lenses on some Kowa's is that the lens pins often just need a little nudge to be fully in the right spot in order to then seat the lens on the camera and turn the collar to lock. Sometimes being off just a tiny bit is enough and that little help to move the pins on the lens gets it there.

The system is designed to have the lens mounted with both are cocked. If the body isn't cocked, don't do it.

Don't unscrew the mount ring with the red mark - there's no way for it to be off unless someone removed and re-installed it incorrectly.

Jeremy

 

[Jeremy Mudd]

Thanks for your time Jeremy. Last few questions

Are the rotating pins on the lens supposed to retract the full distance on their own once nudged? I have to nudge them the entire way. They pins move rather easily but not on their own. If I nudge them along the two parts of the shutter close.

Does a scratched mirror affect image quality? While I was in there I noticed the mirror isn't in great shape. Including a photo here.

Thanks again.

View attachment 343630

It doesn't sound good if you have to move them the entire way. They should move on their own due to the way they are designed. The camera, or you, shouldn't have to do all of the work.

Does the camera wind and fire fine without the lens on it?

Mirrors have nothing to do with image quality. They are there solely to bounce the image from the lens to the viewfinder for you to compose and focus. It flips out of the way when the shutter button is fired and no light passes over or thru it on the way to the film plane.

Jeremy

 

[nosmok]

Whew, there sure are a lot of different Kowa questions in one thread!

What do you mean by "bricked"? If it is dead and no longer working, I wouldn't recommend mounting any good lenses to it.

That said, if it is working and its fully cocked, the one tip I have learned for mounting lenses on some Kowa's is that the lens pins often just need a little nudge to be fully in the right spot in order to then seat the lens on the camera and turn the collar to lock. Sometimes being off just a tiny bit is enough and that little help to move the pins on the lens gets it there.

The system is designed to have the lens mounted with both are cocked. If the body isn't cocked, don't do it.

Don't unscrew the mount ring with the red mark - there's no way for it to be off unless someone removed and re-installed it incorrectly.

Jeremy

Thanks. I don't know if the body's cocked or not, but it isn't moving either way. Too bad, as cosmetically it's good, except for some leatherette scratches. Probably not going to mess with it any more by myself.

 

[ZiaSun]

It doesn't sound good if you have to move them the entire way. They should move on their own due to the way they are designed. The camera, or you, shouldn't have to do all of the work.

Does the camera wind and fire fine without the lens on it?

Mirrors have nothing to do with image quality. They are there solely to bounce the image from the lens to the viewfinder for you to compose and focus. It flips out of the way when the shutter button is fired and no light passes over or thru it on the way to the film plane.

Jeremy

Yes the camera will wind and fire without film and no lens. The camera still jams with film and no lens. So I think the spring is the issue. But it sounds like my lens needs some work as well. The camera is considerably easier to wind without the lens on.

Thanks Jeremy for all your help.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Hello! First time poster here, so please let me know if I'm posting in the wrong category or something
I'm a college student getting into medium format. I was looking for an SLR, so naturally I kept my eyes peeled for a Kowa Six. I got one that's in very good cosmetic condition, but has some kind of shutter issue. The lens comes off, the mirror is down, the shutter counter is at zero, and the winder doesn't budge. You can press in the shutter button, but it doesn't trigger anything (shown in the video).

I found an old forum post saying that you can try to manually move the mechanism the lens' pins go into with a screw driver, but I haven't had any success with that as it's stuck solid. I've takes both of the sides off the camera to expose the gears, and it looks like a gear that should have tension against the shutter button isn't coming into contact with the button. (I understand this is a common issue with Kowa Sixes.) If anyone has any suggestions or recommendations on steps I could take to troubleshoot this, help would be really appreciated.
Another question I have relates to the side of the camera without the winding crank. Under the metal cover, there is some pieces of foam that have deteriorated a lot over the years, including one segment that stretches horizontally across the camera.

I'm planning on cleaning it up and replacing the foam, but I want to make sure that this is just light sealing foam and that it doesn't serve some mechanical purpose.
Thank so much for the assistance!!

Welcome to APUG Photrio!!​

 

[Jeremy Mudd]

Welcome to APUG Photrio!!​

Better late than never?

Jeremy

 

[Jeremy Mudd]

Thanks. I don't know if the body's cocked or not, but it isn't moving either way. Too bad, as cosmetically it's good, except for some leatherette scratches. Probably not going to mess with it any more by myself.

And that's the state of most Kowa medium format cameras that are out there. They look good, but don't work.

Not trying to be down on them, but they just are problem children. They are great when they are working, until they aren't.

Jeremy

 

[Jeremy Mudd]

Yes the camera will wind and fire without film and no lens. The camera still jams with film and no lens. So I think the spring is the issue. But it sounds like my lens needs some work as well. The camera is considerably easier to wind without the lens on.

Thanks Jeremy for all your help.

You're welcome!

TBH, unless you are really set on having to have a Kowa SIX in particular, now is the time to look around at other 6x6 cameras that won't be problem children.

A nice TLR like a Rolleflex Automat, or a Rolleicord, or even a Mamiya C-series would be a good way to go.

Jeremy

 

[Sirius Glass]

Better late than never?

Jeremy

Sumpin' lik dat

 

[Sirius Glass]

You're welcome!

TBH, unless you are really set on having to have a Kowa SIX in particular, now is the time to look around at other 6x6 cameras that won't be problem children.

A nice TLR like a Rolleflex Automat, or a Rolleicord, or even a Mamiya C-series would be a good way to go.

Jeremy

Hasselblad

 

[nosmok]

And that's the state of most Kowa medium format cameras that are out there. They look good, but don't work.

Not trying to be down on them, but they just are problem children. They are great when they are working, until they aren't.

Jeremy

Next question would be, has anyone ever liberated the lens/shutter assemblies from their housings, and mounted them on a helicoid on a Graflok back, or some such. The 35mm and 40mm lenses especially would be cool, to say nothing of the 19mm. I have just enough Graflex rollholders left to make it worthwhile. Oh well, a guy can keep daydreaming.

 

[Jeremy Mudd]

Hasselblad

As an owner of a 500c, 500cm, and 501c I'd wholeheartedly agree. I've never once been let down by my Hasselblad gear. The 500c I own probably has never had a CLA and it still just keeps on going. The only work I ever need to do on my Hasselblad gear, other than keeping it clean, is replacing the light seal on the backs. Which is a simple job and gives great satisfaction when completed.

WARNING: TLDR below

That said, the majority of people looking to get into a Kowa SIX system are doing so because of cost. They aren't willing to make the stretch into 500c or 500cm money. The SIX just has that "look" , and is 20-25% of the purchase price of the Hasselblad. It tends to be an emotional purchase versus the long-term thinking regarding reliability and resale value.

The first time I had a SIX in my hand, I already owned 2 of my 3 Hasselblads. I fell in love with the form factor of the SIX. It had the feeling of shooting with a TLR without the parallax, and made a very satisfying thump when the shutter button was fired. The viewfinder was brighter than the 500c, but not quite to the level of an acutemat in a 500cm. I thought it would make a good companion to my Hasselblad gear and maybe my "go-to" when travelling or walking in areas where maybe I'd prefer to leave the more expensive gear at home.

The shop I was at had 3 complete kits, and all 3 had issues. That should have been my warning, but I kept on. The shop wasn't willing to put a good lens with a good body to sell me a complete working kit, so when I left I went down the internet rabbit hole and bought one from Japan on eBay. It arrived with bad light seals, and the mirror/door stuck halfway open in the body. I contacted the seller who insisted that the seals were good when they shipped it and it worked fine (sure), but when I told them just give me my money back and I'd send it back, they offered to give me half back if I wanted to fix it and keep it. Thus started my repair work on Kowa systems. I fixed the door issue and made a new set of seals. I still have that one in my collection and it still works great.

After that I started buying, fixing, and selling them for some reason. I really don't know why. It was more of a hobby than anything else. I've watched the price of them creep up a bit over the last few years, but they aren't at the same price level as other MF gear.

I've stopped buying them and have started slowly selling off the last few kits I have. Even that's become a PIA with the last one "going bad" somehow between my house and the buyer's house. They are just a real crap-shoot.

If someone really likes SIX's and wants to try one, I'd say they are awesome cameras when they work. If someone has disposable income like me and doesn't need it to be their primary 6x6 shooter, then have at it. One just needs to assume that at any point it may stop working.

Jeremy

 

[Jeremy Mudd]

Next question would be, has anyone ever liberated the lens/shutter assemblies from their housings, and mounted them on a helicoid on a Graflok back, or some such. The 35mm and 40mm lenses especially would be cool, to say nothing of the 19mm. I have just enough Graflex rollholders left to make it worthwhile. Oh well, a guy can keep daydreaming.

Those Kowa lenses you mention above are super rare and not exactly easy to find, and when they do pop up, people want crazy money for them due to their "rarity".

I wouldn't pay the asking price.

Jeremy