Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

mshchem · Mar 9, 2021

urnem57 said:
That’s B.S. Kodak, Kodak Alaris, Sino (can’t keep a) Promise or whatever name you are hiding behind.

First you tell us we don’t need to return it, then you are mute, and now we are supposed to randomly get information from you on an independent internet show? (which is quite good, Nico) All this because you refuse to communicate after putting in writing that you would replace your defective product over a month ago?

On top of that, you want me to pay to ship back your defective product to a retailer who is not responsible for your error?
A retailer that has offered no indication that they are going to issue a refund?

I’m through with you.

Fortunately there are other manufacturers who still make quality products that they stand behind. I’ll support them and buy their products instead.

If this is your new business model, then you deserve to go under.

You are an empty logo that was hollowed out of a once great American Company.

Just keep in mind that with all the mistakes that have happened with the black and white chemistry. That The Eastman Kodak company still is the manufacturer of all Kodak branded films sold anywhere in the world. It all comes from Rochester New York.
It must be miserable for people, who most likely were originally employed by Eastman Kodak, to have gradually seen the demise of the Harrow plant in England, this was George Eastman's first venture in manufacturing outside of the US, and it was second only to Rochester. Thousand people who made color negative paper let go.
The person that sent out the don't worry we will make good on the chemistry, may not even still have a job. Alaris can't change something that's been sold.

bluechromis · Mar 9, 2021

bluechromis said:
I don't mean violently ripping the package wide-open. The packages are only made of paper and that can take only so much stress, unlike old days when developer often came in metal cans.. For example, if the top flap of package is flexed too much in shipping or or otherwise, tiny stress fractures may open up, and that's all take to let in air and cause problems. If your package looks okay you are probably fine. But I have had, and others have reported, having packages go bad due to minor leaks.

radiant · Mar 10, 2021

Kino said:
Freestyle has ignored my email asking how I should return my 2 bags.

I got free return shipment label for my Xtol packages and a full refund from Fotoimpex.

Michael Teresko · Mar 10, 2021

bluechromis said:
Kodak made four major breakthroughs with Xtol: 1. An ascorbate developer with a reasonable shelf life. 2. An ascorbate developer with a lower pH, which allowed fine grain 3. A developer that was self-replenishing 4. An environmentally friendly developer. My impression is that major difference between Xtol/commercial clones and home-mixed clones has to do with self-life of stock solution and exotic materials used promote to self-life. The fundamental developing agents are similar, ascorbate (sodium ascorbate) /phenidone (dimezone) and the pH is similar. But if the stock solution is used as a one shot, shelf life is not of concern with home-mixed preparations. If you want to replenish, it is of concern. So home-made Xtol clones arguably can attain three out of the four Xtol innovations.

I've been using a batch of self-replenished mytol since last August. I replenish at the same 70ml/roll rate as Xtol and probably have run about 40 rolls through it. Still working well.

urnem57 · Mar 10, 2021

I do still buy boxes & boxes of 4x5 Tmax 100. Chemistry? Nope.
Not going to rant any more about it, either

Donald Qualls · Mar 10, 2021

Michael Teresko said:
I've been using a batch of self-replenished mytol since last August. I replenish at the same 70ml/roll rate as Xtol and probably have run about 40 rolls through it. Still working well.

Do you mind disclosing where you sourced sulfite and borax of high enough purity to ensure Mytol lasting?

removedacct1 · Mar 10, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Do you mind disclosing where you sourced sulfite and borax of high enough purity to ensure Mytol lasting?

Donald, have you ASKED the folks at ArtCraft about the purity/grade of their photo chemistry?

Donald Qualls · Mar 10, 2021

paulbarden said:
Donald, have you ASKED the folks at ArtCraft about the purity/grade of their photo chemistry?

I have not.

In general, if the purity is high, the seller will list it, as that's an important selling point (especially if they're charging a premium price). If the purity isn't listed, I need to assume I'm getting no better than technical grade with unspecified impurities (possibly even laundry grade, for borax -- just needs to have the right pH and not enough iron to stain the clothes). And I was asking someone who is actually using replenished Mytol what supplier they were using.

removedacct1 · Mar 10, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I have not.
And I was asking someone who is actually using replenished Mytol what supplier they were using.

Ummm, OK. Rude.

Michael Teresko · Mar 10, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Do you mind disclosing where you sourced sulfite and borax of high enough purity to ensure Mytol lasting?

Probably Photographers Formulary, but I have a few chemicals from Bostick & Sullivan. I need to make up a liter soon so I'll confirm. I wasn't aware of impurities being an issue with mytol and just thought I'd give replenishing a try. I have 2 liters that are my working solution that I keep in a brown glass jug, and I mix up a liter of stock to use as replenisher. This is decanted into 250ml bottles. I use distilled water and always float some argon gas in all the bottles. So far I've had zero issues with solutions going bad, and the working solution seems quite stable. For development times I use the published Xtol 1:1 times for 20C and then develop at 21C.

Donald Qualls · Mar 10, 2021

Just to be clear -- you're using Mytol stock solution and replenishing, but using Xtol 1+1 times and slightly elevated temperature (equivalent to 7-8% increase in time)?

Yes, the cause of the widely commented "sudden Xtol failure" back when the developer was new(ish) was determined to be due to the Fenton reaction, by which iron or copper ions (as impurities in either the water or the feedstock chemicals) cause rapid decomposition of the ascorbate in solution, resulting in the developer failing without warning (for instance, a color change as would occur with a metol/hydroquinone formula). The creators of Mytol have been recommending "Instant Mytol" for some time because commonly available feed chemicals (sulfite and borax) may contain iron that isn't a problem in their more common application -- even in non-ascorbate developers -- but will result in Mytol failing without warning.

Michael Teresko · Mar 10, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Just to be clear -- you're using Mytol stock solution and replenishing, but using Xtol 1+1 times and slightly elevated temperature (equivalent to 7-8% increase in time)?

Correct.

Unaware of any iron/copper impurity issues, I blithely went ahead and tried replenishing mytol as I could find no references online to anyone else doing this. So far, for 6+ months, it has worked without a hitch.

Bear in mind I have not been super scientific about this, i.e. I've done no densitometer readings or test strips, and I don't darkroom print. Processing digitally I think gives one more flexibility in what's a workable negative. Nevertheless, my negatives have been pretty consistent to my eyes, and I've processed several different films. Just off the top of my head, I've used Tri-X, Tmax 400, FP4+, Plus-X, Foma 400 and Orwo UN54+, all with good results.

I'd love to see some others give this a try and report back.

Here's a shot on Foma 400 taken with a Fuji GW690II and developed in replenished mytol recently

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 10, 2021

Mytol, eh? Hmmm. Will have to give it a go. Bloody easy to mix up, too.

Donald Qualls · Mar 10, 2021

I'm definitely interested in your source for sulfite and borax, then. I'm used to getting my borax with the 20 Mule Team logo on the box, and my current supply of sulfite came in a plastic bag from an Amazon seller. I don't trust either one to be iron free enough to make Mytol that lasts, even with DI water (which I use for all chemical mixing).

However, it occurs to me that since I have all these chemicals on hand, I might mix up a liter of Mytol, store it, and test it with a leader periodically for some period of time (six months or a year, perhaps). It's surely possible the hazard of uncertified chemicals is overblown (though also very possible that uncertified chemicals may change source and purity without warning).

radiant · Mar 10, 2021

Michael Teresko said:
Here's a shot on Foma 400 taken with a Fuji GW690II and developed in replenished mytol recently

While making a good looking photo you are also fighting with windmills with this photo. Using Foma 400, capturing highlights and mytol replenishing in the same!

Tom Kershaw · Mar 10, 2021

michael_r said:
If one is determined to make an ascorbate developer at home, my suggestion would be to look at Ryuji Suzuki’s formulas. He did considerable research and work on preventing Fenton oxidation, not to mention his developers are arguably better formulated than other cookbook mixes.

I should be making up DS-10 and DS-12 developers soon. DS-2 works very well in my limited experience so far.

Ai Print · Mar 11, 2021

I have been too busy lately to check into it but obviously they are well past the February timeline for getting out replacement product. They owe me 20 kits, not a ton but no small amount either.

Good thing I have the legit stuff on hand to get me through until they figure this out...

m00dawg · Mar 11, 2021

FWIW, I asked Freestyle if EcoPro can be replenished and the answer is yes, though they're following up to make sure. When I hear back I'll share the results. Of course I know people definitely do this with good results but wanted to double check. I also ordered some Adox XT-3 to try, though I expect that will take quite some time to get here (and there is no official data on replenishment for it at this time)

urnem57 · Mar 11, 2021

Good to know that there are plenty of other options - as well as some people who are very generous with both their knowledge and experience.

removedacct1 · Mar 14, 2021

michael_r said:
Freestyle appears to be expecting XTOL March 19th. This of course could mean virtually anything from nothing to something. My guess is nothing, but maybe it is some sort of news.

Xtol has been restocked at Blue Moon Camera in PDX, so its obviously getting out - just not to the customers who already paid for it months ago. >:-(

Michael Teresko · Mar 14, 2021

Old Gregg said:
I never found any evidence of this. Moreover, if we're guessing together, I will guess the other way: self-replenishing is a **major** selling point of any developer because it opens the mini-lab market which is arguably more lucrative than hobbyists, yet not a single Xtol clone boasts self-replenishing capability so my bet is they can't do it or can't do it well.

Not trying to flog a dead horse here, but I have real world evidence that home brew mytol does self-replenish. Six+ months and 40+ rolls in and its still working well as of yesterday. Why don't you try it out yourself? It would be good to have people try replenishing non-Xtol formulas instead of just speculating. My batch may crash and burn someday, but so far so good.

Holga 120N
Foma 400
mytol-r 11min @ 22C

Tom Kershaw · Mar 14, 2021

Yesterday I managed to shoot a few sheets of TMY-2 and process in DS-10 with decent results. I'll try for some more assuming the very strong winds here will have died down. Suzuki indicates that DS-12(2) is a better option for slower films but I'm not sure where the cut-off point is. Certainly some test Pan F Plus in DS-2 gave good shadow detail at EI 50.

My working assumption at the moment is that DS-10 is suited to TMY-2, Tri-X, HP5 Plus, Delta 400 etc.

Tom Kershaw · Mar 15, 2021

Old Gregg said:
Last time I checked, the exact formula of Xtol is not in public access. Moreover, apparently it's not trivial to manufacture because even people who own the recipe keep f---ing it up

I suspect part of the difficulty is in packaging up the developer into two components that can then remain stable enough for a few years, before mixing into solution.

Donald Qualls · Mar 15, 2021

So, the last time I asked this, I got labeled as rude, apparently because I wanted an answer from the Mytol user I addressed instead of a (rude?) repetition of a previous pointer to a source without any specs posted -- but can anyone who's actually replenishing Mytol confirm how they obtained and verified pure enough chemicals to avoid Fenton reaction over long enough time for replenishment to matter?

Michael Teresko · Mar 15, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
So, the last time I asked this, I got labeled as rude, apparently because I wanted an answer from the Mytol user I addressed instead of a (rude?) repetition of a previous pointer to a source without any specs posted -- but can anyone who's actually replenishing Mytol confirm how they obtained and verified pure enough chemicals to avoid Fenton reaction over long enough time for replenishment to matter?

Sodium sulfite grade not shown Bostick & Sullivan
Sodium metaborate technical grade B&S
Phenidone NG B&S
Sodium Metabisulfite reagent grade Amazon
distilled water grocery store

I do actually have a gallon or two of lab grade water but haven't found it necessary.

Kodak XTOL trade concern announcment

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