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chuckroast

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@DREW WILEY I was specifically referring to HP5+ versatility with the scanning workflow. Again, this is the "analog" section but the way how we process films defines our requirements and, therefore, versatility.

Here's a flat (linear) scan of an extremely high contrast scene. The house is in a deep mountain shadow, and the hot tub area is burred even further, meanwhile the trees are hit by the direct sunlight which is even harsher at Tahoe elevation. There's no clipping. There's texture in all shadowed areas and the highlights are not blocked.

The original 16-bit ITFF can be edited to look like anything. The histogram is "smiling ear to ear" i.e. it contains more tonal values than any monitor or paper is capable of reproducing. From now on it's about deciding which information to throw away, and I have the full tonal scale to apply any kind of contrast curve I want.

I'm not criticizing T-Max films, only pointing out how versatile HP5 is.

View attachment 347696

Yes, but if I read @DREW WILEY's original point correctly, he's saying that the film cannot handle more than 11 stops or so, and you're forced to compress the scene SBR into those 11 stops of capture. At least I think that's what he means. If not, apologize ahead of time for my dumbness.

In the scene you provide above, you've mapped a very high SBR into a very small one centered around the middle of the tonal range with very low contrast. This can be achieved with almost any decent film with appropriate development techniques - two bath, compensating development, semistand, etc. I think the central question, though, is whether the film can innately capture the entire SBR without these compensation techniques. If my understanding of Drew's point is approximately correct, the claim is that HP5+ cannot, but Tmax can.
 

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film can innately capture the entire SBR without these compensation techniques

There's always compression because none of our reproduction technologies can show you 11-13 stops of dynamic range. Besides, what gives you the impression that I captured the "very small" range here? I captured all of it. You're looking at a 8-bit JPEG export, while I have the RAW file which shows the huge range of tonal values captured. My point is that: you cannot even see/evaluate the entire range with a naked eye, but you can digitally decide what portion of it to fit onto the reproduction medium, be it a monitor or paper.

If we're talking about film versatility for hybrid workflow, that's all you can possibly want: to capture the fullest range of values to have the freedom to chop off whatever doesn't fit onto your monitor or paper.

What Drew is talking about, at least that's my interpretation, is being able to do the same in the darkroom. Arguably it's much harder, and I suppose T-Max 400 gives him that. Scanning is a great neutralizer.
 

chuckroast

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There's always compression because none of our reproduction technologies can show you 11-13 stops of dynamic range. Besides, what gives you the impression that I captured the "very small" range here? I captured all of it. You're looking at a 8-bit JPEG export, while I have the RAW file which shows the huge range of tonal values captured. My point is that: you cannot even see/evaluate the entire range with a naked eye, but you can digitally decide what portion of it to fit onto the reproduction medium, be it a monitor or paper.

If we're talking about film versatility for hybrid workflow, that's all you can possibly want: to capture the fullest range of values to have the freedom to chop off whatever doesn't fit onto your monitor or paper.

What Drew is talking about, at least that's my interpretation, is being able to do the same in the darkroom. Arguably it's much harder, and I suppose T-Max 400 gives him that. Scanning is a great neutralizer.

(Asking, not arguing) So are you saying that you find that HP5+ is innately capable of capturing SBRs greater than 11?

I'm curious because there are actually 3 different ranges of light of interest:

1. The range of light found in nature.
2. The range of light a piece of film can hold w/o compensation techniques (i.e. On its straight line)
3. The range of light in the final reproductive medium

1. is well north of 15 stops as I recall

The very best films perhaps can handle 13 stops or maybe a bit more. So if 1. is greater than 2., You're forced to do some form of SBR compression/mapping. Either you loose the shadows or your compensate the highlights to squeeze everything in.

3. is 5-ish stops, at least for silver paper. As you say, that means you pick and choose the portions of the captured SBR to map onto the paper as an interpretive act.
 

faberryman

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(Asking, not arguing) So are you saying that you find that HP5+ is innately capable of capturing SBRs greater than 11?

I'm curious because there are actually 3 different ranges of light of interest:

1. The range of light found in nature.
2. The range of light a piece of film can hold w/o compensation techniques (i.e. On its straight line)
3. The range of light in the final reproductive medium

1. is well north of 15 stops as I recall

The very best films perhaps can handle 13 stops or maybe a bit more. So if 1. is greater than 2., You're forced to do some form of SBR compression/mapping. Either you loose the shadows or your compensate the highlights to squeeze everything in.

3. is 5-ish stops, at least for silver paper. As you say, that means you pick and choose the portions of the captured SBR to map onto the paper as an interpretive act.

A lot of photographers, particularly on forums, are so busy crowing about the SBR range of their film, they rarely mention No. 3.
 
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Steven Lee

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Chuck, I am talking about #2, i.e. the range of density values captured on film. On this 16-bit linear (this is important) scan before any contrast curves are applied, the luminosity range is about 9,800. The darkest pixels are about 9,880, the lightest are about 80.

9,800 is a bit above 2^13.
 
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chuckroast

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Everybody is so busy crowing about how wide the SBR range their film has, you don't hear much about No. 3.

Well, yes, but there is some merit to this discussion. Ideally, you want to have the maximum number of choices when producing the final output, whether paper or dots of light. The more that is captured onto the film, the more options (in theory) we have during final interpretation.

What I have found - and this is just me, not some deeper truth of the universe - is that if I preserve the shadows detail of interest (not always every shadow), protect the highlights from blowing out, and maintain midtone local contrast, I almost always have highly interpretable negatives. In doing this, I realize that I am mapping the naturally occurring SBR onto the film in a non-linear way, but that's almost inevitable somewhere in the reproduction chain.
 

chuckroast

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Chuck, I am talking about #2, i.e. the range of density values captured on film. On this 16-bit linear (this is important) scan before any contrast curves are applied, the luminosity range is about 21,300. The darkest pixels are about 3,900, the lightest are about 25,200.

21,300 is a bit above 2^14.

Gotcha. You've got an existence proof that HP5+ can handle 14 stops of light. I've never measured it myself in any way - denisometrically or via a scan - but that seems more like what I've experienced than suggesting it can only hold 11-12 stops. Thanks!
 

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Everybody is so busy crowing about how wide the SBR range their film has, you don't hear much about No. 3.
What I think about is:

#4) the range of light a printing process can reproduce w/o compensation techniques needed for negatives for images with a large SBR.

Which is what led me to carbon printing. A way of getting the SBR as in the image below, 13 stops measured, developed normally (no compensation in the development). This is an older neg on Tri-X, I believe, and would have been developed in HC-110. I like negs with a DR of 2.8 to 3.0 or so.

I found the issue for HP5+ for me is that it does not expand as well as FP4+ and other films I use. I have a bunch of 11x14 HP5+ that I would like to play with -- find some very wide SBR images to get some power out of it.
 

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chuckroast

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What I think about is:

#4) the range of light a printing process can reproduce w/o compensation techniques needed for negatives for images with a large SBR.

Which is what led me to carbon printing. A way of getting the SBR as in the image below, 13 stops measured, developed normally (no compensation in the development). This is an older neg on Tri-X, I believe, and would have been developed in HC-110. I like negs with a DR of 2.8 to 3.0 or so.

I found the issue for HP5+ for me is that it does not expand as well as FP4+ and other films I use. I have a bunch of 11x14 HP5+ that I would like to play with -- find some very wide SBR images to get some power out of it.


Gorgeous image. A+
 

DREW WILEY

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Chuck has well explained this, because he understands the side effects of any kind of sandwich compression, whether "minus"compression development or scanning tweaks afterwards. Numerous films are capable of bagging extreme ranges of luminance when specially developed for sake of that. But there is always a penalty. The proof is in the pudding, the print itself. There's a penalty to the intermediate gradation and overall microtonality itself. Digital printers without a strong prior background in darkroom printing often don't duly appreciate that distinction. Hence there are all kinds of histogram and other arguments that aren't entirely relevant. My own eyes tell me something else, and even my own light meter.

And without trying to be dismissive of your own approach, Steven - that scene you posted looks like a garden-variety luminance challenge to me. Try taking a shot of gleaming glacial ice in direct sunlight adjacent to deeply pitted black volcanic rock in the same neg, and try to retain in print the most intricate specular sparkle and reflections in distinction form the overall whiteness, and then almost tactile tonality all the way down to the distinction between black rock in shade and the deepest pits and cracks within that, and then tell me how to achieve that on HP5. I've successfully done it many times, but never once with HP5. And I know a lot of sophisticated printing tricks. Scanning won't make any difference in that respect.

A full scale 12 stop range print on HP5 simply won't have the same convincing sparkle and intricate depths of shadow as if the same shot were taken and masterfully printed from a more straight line film like TMax 400 or ole Bergger 200.
It can't. You're skating on extremely thin ice way down on the toe, where there is little substance to actually reproduce. But the distinction itself is even hard to render in inkjet, being a less nuanced medium, so people claim all kinds of things without a valid comparison. It's the QUALITY of what's in the nether portions of the exposure scale, not just their mere existence, which counts.

And then there's the case of certain UV media like carbon (which Vaughn does) or Pt/Pd printing, which can handle longer scales than silver gelatin projection papers, and indeed generally needs "thicker" negatives. But even in that case, a longer potential native scale on the straight line portion of the film has significant benefits. Hence Super-XX was prized in its time by UV and Azo contact printers. Proponents of Tri-X would heavily overexpose for sake of contact printing media, yet that habit had the side effect of blowing out the highlights if the same negs were used for regular silver printing.

So one should think more in terms of nature of the distribution of full tonality rather than just somehow salvaging its nether portions. If it can be done via scanning and digital curve reconstruction, it was done by various masking protocols already many times before, perhaps not as easily, but just as effectively. You can only retrieve something already there, and only in relation to its actual quality. And having worked with HP5 a lot myself, I've learned its realistic limits. I won't go into my own broader toolbox of pyro developers, masking strategies, VC split printing etc. Those things can certainly help, but can't manufacture tonality that isn't decently caught on the neg to begin with.

Again, I'm not implying there is anything wrong with your choice of film. HP5 has a number of wonderful characteristics, especially when pyro developed. But there are good reasons why other film choices exist too.
 
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chuckroast

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<SNIP>
Numerous films are capable of bagging extreme ranges of luminance when specially developed for sake of that. But there is always a penalty.

A full scale 12 stop range print on HP5 simply won't have the same convincing sparkle and intricate depths of shadow as if the same shot were taken and masterfully printed from a more straight line film like TMax 400 or ole Bergger 200.

The biggest "penalty" I've observed when trying to contract a large SBR into a film that cannot handle it, is a loss of midtone local contrast. You get the whole SBR on film, but the middle tones look muddy and lack crisp separation. But it is that midtone contrast that gives prints their "wow" factor, at least for many subjects. Kachel has written well on the importance of local contrast. I recommend his pontifications on the matter.

Have you been successful in getting T-Max to stain well in any Pyro concoction? I've tried TMX, never TMY and never got very happy Pyro artifacts, at least in PMK. I don't recall if I've tried it in Pyrocat-HD.

P.S. At the risk of being a broken record, one of the several benefits I discovered when I did a deep dive on semistand development was that you can rein in the highlight to keep them from blowing out, without compressing the midtones. Quite to the contrary, semistand actually expands the midtones in some degree.
 
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DREW WILEY

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I routinely do TMY400 in PMK with excellent results. No, you won't get as deep an overall pyro stain as with HP5, for example, but it's highly effective anyway, due to so much less overall fbf than with other films. TMX100 is a different story. It of course has tremendous detail and microtonal capacity, but rather poor edge effect. So for TMX film only, I generally use Perceptol 1:3 instead, which gives me just the right amount of grain growth and mackie line effect. Of course, for something like smooth complexion portraiture, I revert back to PMK for TMY as well.

Some people prefer Pyrocat. Not me. I've tried all kinds of pyro tweaks, and even concocted a couple new ones of my own. PMK still seems the best choice for tray and hand-inversion drum developing (not rotary). The more brownish Pyrocat stain (versus yellow-green of PMK) did things to grain appearance I didn't like as well.
 

chuckroast

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I routinely do TMY400 in PMK with excellent results. No, you won't get as deep an overall pyro stain as with HP5, for example, but it's highly effective anyway, due to so much less overall fbf than with other films. TMX100 is a different story. It of course has tremendous detail and microtonal capacity, but rather poor edge effect. So for TMX film only, I generally use Perceptol 1:3 instead, which gives me just the right amount of grain growth and mackie line effect. Of course, for something like smooth complexion portraiture, I revert back to PMK for TMY as well.

Some people prefer Pyrocat. Not me. I've tried all kinds of pyro tweaks, and even concocted a couple new ones of my own. PMK still seems the best choice for tray and hand-inversion drum developing (not rotary). The more brownish Pyrocat stain (versus yellow-green of PMK) did things to grain appearance I didn't like as well.

I would be interested in seeing some of your images derived from both Perceptol and PMK TMX/TMY respectively.
 

DREW WILEY

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Yes. But not over the web, which is next to worthless when any kind of fine visual nuance is in play.

And concerning this entire thread, one picture is worth more than a thousand words. Or I could amend that by stating, worth more than endless math calculations and mere theoreticals.
 

Tomro

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I routinely do TMY400 in PMK with excellent results. No, you won't get as deep an overall pyro stain as with HP5, for example, but it's highly effective anyway, due to so much less overall fbf than with other films. TMX100 is a different story. It of course has tremendous detail and microtonal capacity, but rather poor edge effect. So for TMX film only, I generally use Perceptol 1:3 instead, which gives me just the right amount of grain growth and mackie line effect. Of course, for something like smooth complexion portraiture, I revert back to PMK for TMY as well.

Some people prefer Pyrocat. Not me. I've tried all kinds of pyro tweaks, and even concocted a couple new ones of my own. PMK still seems the best choice for tray and hand-inversion drum developing (not rotary). The more brownish Pyrocat stain (versus yellow-green of PMK) did things to grain appearance I didn't like as well.

Which pyro tweak would you suggest for rotary, then?
 

Steven Lee

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Drew, you have to show us some scans of your prints. "Intricate specular sparkle" and "overall micro-tonality" are so subjective that carry as little meaning as "something Drew likes". At some point we bump into the natural limitations of text here. I am definitely intrigued by your characterization of T-Max 400, but I must admit it will be a while before an extreme scene reminiscent of what you've described presents itself. How do I know? Because in many years shooting with digital cameras I do not remember, not once, looking at a RAW file from a 14-bit ADC and thinking that the scene exceeded that. No need for sparkles. Just math and physics. I guess I live a garden variety life and surrounded by garden variety subjects to photograph! :smile:
 

Steven Lee

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Yes. But not over the web, which is next to worthless when any kind of fine visual nuance is in play.
That is why I am suggesting you share a scan of a PRINT, not negative. I respect your preference for the workflow and the end result, but for sharing purposes - why not? All photo papers have a minuscule range of deflected light values compared to sensors and monitors, so 100% of it easily fits onto a scan and can be accurately reproduced digitally.
 

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Steven - scans of prints aren't prints, for one thing, and the web sure as heck can't possibly do justice to any nuanced print, whether in terms of tonal nuance or subtle hue reproduction. It might be a fine vehicle for general discussion and basic examples, but not for the kind of thing we're talking about here. When I get around to digitally scanning my print collection at my copy stand station, it will be for estate cataloging purposes, not for sake of secondary reproduction, though I suppose another website could be spun off of it, but again, merely for catalog ease, not as a represenatation of actual quality, which must be seen in person. The web remains a relatively crude visual instrument, just as it was designed to be for sake of speed.

It's interesting how Julia Cameron could make more finely nuanced platinum prints in a converted chicken coop than any digitally printed images I've ever seen; and she did it a full century before calculators, let alone home computers. Eyes have their advantages.
 

takilmaboxer

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Well, I've seen actual prints by both Vaughn and Drew,and I would tend to agree that my computer screen is not up to the task of displaying their beauty. Platinum printing in particular, has an almost 3D visual effect. There used to be a gallery in Santa Fe that had two Edward Weston prints side by side, both very old, one platinum, one gelatin silver, on display; and the difference was dramatic in person.
I suppose that's why some folks still like the old films.
 

chuckroast

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Steven - scans of prints aren't prints, for one thing, and the web sure as heck can't possibly do justice to any nuanced print, whether in terms of tonal nuance or subtle hue reproduction. It might be a fine vehicle for general discussion and basic examples, but not for the kind of thing we're talking about here. When I get around to digitally scanning my print collection at my copy stand station, it will be for estate cataloging purposes, not for sake of secondary reproduction, though I suppose another website could be spun off of it, but again, merely for catalog ease, not as a represenatation of actual quality, which must be seen in person. The web remains a relatively crude visual instrument, just as it was designed to be for sake of speed.

It's interesting how Julia Cameron could make more nuanced platinum prints in a converted chicken coop than any digitally printed images I've ever seen; and she did it a full century before calculators. Eyes have their advantages.

All that is true in one way - prints are reflective and digital displays are transmissive. But that said, I've had good results scanning my workbook prints and then hand matching them on the computer for best closest match on a more-or-less calibrated display. Of course, not everyone has calibrated displays and this leads to "it's too dark", "it lacks contrast" and so forth.

However, it's still a useful way to explain ideas even if it doesn't show up the full beauty of a silver print.

For example, I've repeatedly said that contracted development yields muddy midtones and boring pictures, even if you get the full range of light into it somehow. Here's is a scan of a silver print shot on a flat gray day after a snow storm, with the sun just starting to punch through from the upper right. From the darkest recesses of the awning in the back left to snow on the right was something like 10-11 stops. The central part of the image is the most interesting part and it already had very little brightness range. N-2 development would have clobbered it further. So I did extended dilute development with intermittent agitation. This enhanced the midtone local contrast and kept the highlights in bounds. (Yes, I know the snow, bottom right needs to be burned more. That's why I make these work prints to figure all that out.)
 

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DREW WILEY

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Well, sure, the web can be an excellent teaching or discussion tool with appropriate illustrations. But when it comes to convincing people, one could debate certain topics for a decade, whereas one "Wow" in front of an actual exemplary print would settle the whole thing once for all. Sadly, all a lot of people know is what they see on a computer or cell phone screen. The accepted standard has never before been so dismally low.
 

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Drew, maybe you're attributing the "wow" factor of a print to the wrong thing? In my personal experience (and how else can we discuss subjective phenomena?) the feeling, i.e. arguably the whole point of a photograph, is created by the combination of the image plus the innate characteristics of the reproduction medium. While I agree with you, one obviously cannot digitize the physical properties and their effect on reflecting light off papers, the dynamic range - the subject of this conversation - is just a number. Computers are better with numbers than our eyes. Your scan won't look as good, but it should be able to demonstrate the difference between HP5+ and T-Max 400 when it comes to compressing the scene's range onto film and then onto a print.
 

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Sadly, all a lot of people know is what they see on a computer or cell phone screen. The accepted standard has never before been so dismally low.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Most of the images on my laptop look significantly better that the photographs in my photo albums, which, on average, are execrable.
 
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chuckroast

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The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Most of the images on my laptop look significantly better that the photographs in my photo albums, which, on average, are execrable.

I think it was Garry Winograd that said something to the effect that if a photographer could create 8 great pictures in a lifetime, that was success. Then again, I was never a big fan of his. 'Still working on those 8 though.
 
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