Kodak Selenium Toner. what color does it tone ?

[lhalcong]

Hi I am interested in venturing into the toning world a little deeper. So far I have used only the Variable Sepia from Photospeed following exact vendor instructions. I was not totally sold by the color rendering although there is a lot to play with in this arena. Having said that, I have a brand new bottle of Kodak Selenium. What color does Selenium toner produce ? I have extensively read through the forum ; I have seen a large array of different answers. from Red-Brownish and warm tones to olive green and bluish-cold tones... I am confused. Am I able to get that wide arrange of tones from this Toner ? How do I do that ? I read so far that varying paper, time, dilution, etc are the variables to play with. I just like to start off with some guidance and then go from there. Some guidance to get me started could probably go a long way to save my low budget.

if this help; Materials I use: Ilford VC paper. I develop with Kodak Dektol.

Thanks for replies.

PS: I do have second question on how to make Cream tone (favos kids portraiture) but I will post that as a separate thread to avoid confusion.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Selenium will produce different tones depending on the paper, the dilution used, and the time in the developer, ranging from a slight cooling of the blacks if used highly dilute for a short time down to a reddish/purplish color if used in high concentration for a long time.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Your info is still not specific enough, since Ilford makes more than one type of VC paper. But let's say, hypothetically, that you are getting a
slightly greenish black with Dektol and Multigrade IV. Selenium is likely to deepen the DMax a bit and make the black a little more neutral if used briefly. Longer times or higher concentration will tend to produce a somewhat more purple-brown tone, not a blue-black. I'd recommend experimenting with a 20:1 dilution of the selenium, anywhere from 30 sec to 2 min, to see what you like.

 

[lhalcong]

Hi Drew,

I only use Ilford RC VC papers. satin, glossy and pearl finish. nothing else. I do not like fiber paper finish so I dont use it at all. haven't tried portfolio either or other variations yet.

thx

 

[Bob Carnie]

I mix my toner much stronger than most... I use a 1:5 dilution.

paper of choice .... developer of choice....

make 6 prints



tone for 10 seconds... 25 seconds...45 seconds...60 seconds....1 1/2 min... two minutes.


pick your poison.

 

[MattKing]

Hi Drew,

I only use Ilford RC VC papers. satin, glossy and pearl finish. nothing else. I do not like fiber paper finish so I dont use it at all. haven't tried portfolio either or other variations yet.

thx

There are five types of Ilford RC VC papers:

1) MULTIGRADE IV RC DELUXE;
2) MULTIGRADE RC COOLTONE;
3) MULTIGRADE RC WARMTONE;
4) MULTIGRADE IV RC PORTFOLIO; and
5) MULTIGRADE RC EXPRESS.

Which are you using?

 

[Tom1956]

Some introductory info here:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/g23/g23.pdf

Everyone has given good advice so far. In the end you'll have to do some experimenting and see what you like. It is difficult for people to accurately describe what the colour looks like because people respond to these things subjectively. Even if you use one paper, one developer and one toning procedure and show it to 10 people, you might get different descriptions from them. If you get a purple-ish colour, some people might describe that as a warm tone, others might describe it as a cool tone.

Try it out with your paper and your developer. Make several copies of a print that has a wide range of tones, then either vary the toning time with a constant dilution (as Bob outlined), or try a constant toning time with different dilutions. Start from there.

Thank you MR74. Following the link to the Kodak PDF and reading, I've read something on p 4 that I never heard of and would like to inquire if I have this right--they're saying to actually use HCA to dilute the toner? I never heard of that. If so, I wonder what the keeping qualities would be, for keeping and re-using at later dates. Thx.

 

[Roger Cole]

You can dilute with HCA but HCA at working strength oxidizes quickly so by doing this you have to toss the toner after one use, where separate toning and HCA baths allow you to re-use the toner saving both money (HCA is cheap, ST isn't) and environmental impact.

 

[piu58]

I experimented with selenium toner quite a lot. Using PE papers you get a slight color shift to purple. It may be that you detect it only by a sde by side comparision.

The best effect I got with warm tone baryta paper. Short toning times lead to a color shift in direction purple, very long times lead to a warm brown color.

 

[walbergb]

My suggestion to you is a variation on Bob Carnie's experiment. Instead of subjecting your prints to specific times in the Se or limiting the time to two minutes, tone a single print to the completion of the colour shift. Observe and make notes on the sequence of the image colour changes. This means leaving the print in the Se long enough for it to affect the highlights. Remember that selenium works from the dark tones of the print first, moves up through to the mid tones, and eventually (if the print is in the toner long enough) into the highlights. This could take 20 minutes or more, depending upon the concentration.

1. Expose and develop three identical prints
2. Use one print as a wet reference print (i.e., control subject)
3. Constantly agitate one print in a high concentration of Se. Bob (the other Bob ) suggests 1:5 (I would use 1:4 for easier math, but that is just me).
4. Repeat the experiment with a print in a Se concentration of 1:19 (others might suggest 1:20--again with the math).

You can repeat this little experiment with different papers, developers, and concentrations of Se; but change only one variable at a time. If you are using a neutral-tone paper and it is the colour shift you seek, I recommend warmtone papers. This experiment will make you familiar with what is possible with Se toning. When you have a print with a specific colour shift in mind as the end result, you can vary the concentration and time to achieve your goal.

One final suggestion. If you are really serious about learning what Se toning can do (or any toning for that matter), invest in a transmission step wedge (see Stouffer Transmission Step Wedges). Step wedge prints make it easier to visualize the colour shifts (down to as little as 1/3 of a stop) than a print of a subject where the densities are different all over the print. You can make 10 step wedge prints from one sheet of 8x10. I keep a bunch of step wedge prints on file and experiment on them before making prints.

 

[Bob Carnie]

ONE HINT OR WARNING

When using a very strong mix of selenium toner like 1:5 do not stand over the tray with your head close to the tray.

the most incredible experience will happen if you have silver fillings in your teeth. Your teeth will start hurting .. talk about strange.

I need a better mind than mine to explain what is happening , but in my layman understanding I think the selenium is trying to couple with the silver in my head.

 

[lhalcong]

There are five types of Ilford RC VC papers:

1) MULTIGRADE IV RC DELUXE;
2) MULTIGRADE RC COOLTONE;
3) MULTIGRADE RC WARMTONE;
4) MULTIGRADE IV RC PORTFOLIO; and
5) MULTIGRADE RC EXPRESS.

Which are you using?

I have 1), 2) and 3) . have not tried Portfolio or Express.

 

[MattKing]

I have 1), 2) and 3) . have not tried Portfolio or Express.

The Cooltone goes quite blue-black.

The "Deluxe" does very little.

I mostly split-tone the Warmtone, so I cannot really answer your question about the effect of the Selenium alone.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I cannot answer this question as I have never used rc for final prints, only contacts and I never selenium toned them.

 

[Roger Cole]

The Deluxe cools off nicely to neutral - good for eliminating the olive cast and I creasing d max a bit.

 

[lhalcong]

Ok, after following some of the recommendations here. I am reporting my findings with Kodak Rapid SE diluted 1:5 .

On Ilford RC VC for up to 20min, I watched and noted for color changes along the way. (I opted for this approach instead of the 6 prints for budget reasons). Although I did notice some intensification of the darks, I find no significant or even noticeable tone change. Compared next to an untoned print.

On warmtone ilford RC VC , there is tone change, however I would call it a color cast more than a color tone. Its ever so slightly toned. A print for 6min shows no difference to a print for 20min. The tone seems more on the cool side to me sort of what some other people have reported as eggplant.

Do these findings sound right ?

I am on a quest to get a very warm almost beige cream look without hitting yellow. But I have to be able to see the color as opposed to this slight cast. I dont think Selenium will get me there. I wish someone could give me the exact formula/recipe including paper/developer/toner combination. I did post another question regarding that look I am looking for.

Thanks for any insight.
Luis

 

[Roger Cole]

Lots of people say this. I must just be VERY sensitive to minor changes of tone. I can see the slight but real change in color on RC VC from 3-5 minutes at 1+19. Look closely. A bright light helps. The untoned print will have a slight but noticeable once you see it olive/green tint, which is nicely removed by the selenium toner.

For what you are looking for, try brown toner. You can get it from Freestyle as the Legacy Pro brand, same formula as the old Kodak brown toner. I use it more diluted but most people use it as suggested. It's a warm but not as yellow as sepia tone.

I've posted this one before in toning threads, but here's a photo of my wife, then fiance, on Ilford WTFB, developed in Harmon WT developer and then toned in Legacy Pro brown toner (1/4 strength in this case, but you can play with that)

Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed by Roger Cole, on Flickr

 

[lhalcong]

Hi Roger, thank you. I do see slight change but it is not nearly as much as I would have expected. and it didnt go in the warm direction but I feel it went on the opposite direction. I will try scan and post the example.
Your test shot is kind of what I am looking for but even less pronounced. I can see brown in yours, mine should be cream but cream enough to be able to tell like almost approaching beige but not arriving to beige. Sounds picky but it is the look I am going for. Testing many toners and papers and chemicals is going to cost me too much. I hope someone can post the exact formula. Paper/Developer/Toner and recipe. I know it is too much to ask but I rather start there than testing many toners and papers until I find the right one. Someone said to me use ilford warmtone paper developed in ilford warmtone developer, but other people have posted this combination is not warm enough. If not other suggestions I will give that a try and I will look into the toner you suggested above.

 

[piu58]

Dear Ihalong, yor are at a point now where I recommend to read Tim Rudmans's book first. It explaines the toning methids very well, the book is illustrated comme il faut.

 

[clayne]

It sounds like what you're looking for a polysulfide or sepia toner. This doesn't mean you can't use selenium at the same time but selenium isn't known for yellows.