Kodak Reintroduces Ektachrome.

[Cholentpot]

Spare us your nonsense. This has nothing to do with economics, not hatred.

Good, goooood...let the hate flow...

 

[Photo Engineer]

I do not know about slide coating as much, but for curtain coating (often uses a slide die, but "drops" the curtain with solution fed edge guides a significant distance to form a "heel" at the substrate) there are edge effects. The edge guides help manage the edge effects. I suspect with slide coating and the higher viscosity emulsions used for film (based on some of the limited YouTube scenes I have viewed), the edge effects could be substantial, and there may be a lot of edge waste. I suspect there are no edge guides with the slide coating of emulsion as the "curtain" is very short if even present (I could not see on any video). So narrow width could effectiveley mean really narrow width.

There is a 1 - 2 inch selvege edge on each side of the coating to allow for the effects you mention. Slide and curtain both give similar effects of about this amount. This is taken into account as is start up marks and shut down marks.

PE

 

[markjwyatt]

There is a 1 - 2 inch selvege edge on each side of the coating to allow for the effects you mention. Slide and curtain both give similar effects of about this amount. This is taken into account as is start up marks and shut down marks.

PE

This is pretty significant. What line speeds are full speed film lines run at? Was it mainly slide coating with a short drop to the substrate? I suspect there was curtain coating occurring (primer layers, topcoats?).

I was involved with adhesives coating, and curtain coating (or slot die coating) was up to several hundred m/min by up to 2 meters wide. We tended to leave minimal edge uncoated (1-3 mm was ideal) and tried for edge-edge usable product (other than uncoated trim, and maybe a tiny bit more). Emulsions were all going to curtain coating (at least for commodity products). Much of it was single layer inverted slot die, as well as a few instances of dual layer using a slide die. Hot melt was of course single layer slot die coated. A 1000 m/min. limit was a machine design limitation, not necessarily a coating limitation. Curtain coating liked higher speeds (or did not like slow speeds might be more accurate), but I think I recall there were some limitations at the high end of standard ranges also, but there were approaches to overcome these limitations.

 

[fjpod]

its what freestyle says on the MSDS
i just referred to what they said so take it up with them.
i never said or suggested i was a
chemist or play on on TV or a youtube video
what i said was it might not be legal or a good idea to dump down the drain
and to consult local laws. maybe instead of insulting me
you should contact the people who make local laws
( that's going to be a lot of cities and towns PE ) and
tell them they are all idiots, and how dumping photochemistry
down the drain is perfectly harmless and how they should
focus their efforts on hair dye and draino.
besides suggesting its probably not a good idea to do
color processing on the kitchen counter and the
the kitchen sink, i said that selenium is harmful, am i a fool
for suggesting that too ? its kind of sad people suggest people act recklessly, really sad.


it doesn't take a degree to contact local authorities and ask if it is OK to dump chemistry down the drain.
and when they say no, not really, make sure you tell them the law is stupid and you are going to do it anyways.

too funny...

Are you talking about contacting the same local authorities that threaten to fine us if we don't use fresh water to wash out our recyclables?, the same ones that now send multiple oil dripping-diesel burning garbage trucks down our streets to pick up multiple types of refuse?, the ones that are more interested in stopping you from using a plastic swizzle stick in your coffee while at the same time drive their cars with a single occupant in the HOV lanes with a city official placard on their dash? Or do you mean the ones in flint Michigan that thought it was a good idea to change their water supply?

Oh, I feel very unprotected by those people. And I feel more protected by using my common sense.

 

[warden]

Kodak was on instagram with a short interview with more details yesterday and they’re sounding confident and satisfied with progress. They said to look for more details an a few weeks. I no longer feel the need to stockpile Provia.

 

[BrianShaw]

Kodak was on instagram with a short interview with more details yesterday and they’re sounding confident and satisfied with progress. They said to look for more details an a few weeks. I no longer feel the need to stockpile Provia.

"details" doesn't mean anything really. All it means is another post of some type. What confidence does that really provide?

 

[warden]

"details" doesn't mean anything really. All it means is another post of some type. What confidence does that really provide?

None if you don’t believe them, I suppose. I’m just letting those interested know that there is some information on instagram if they choose to seek it out. No big deal.

 

[WilmarcoImaging]

50” wide mentioned in the Insta feed.

Deduct 2” for selvedge yields 48” wide rolls.

#largeformatektachrome

 

[Photo Engineer]

This is pretty significant. What line speeds are full speed film lines run at? Was it mainly slide coating with a short drop to the substrate? I suspect there was curtain coating occurring (primer layers, topcoats?).

I was involved with adhesives coating, and curtain coating (or slot die coating) was up to several hundred m/min by up to 2 meters wide. We tended to leave minimal edge uncoated (1-3 mm was ideal) and tried for edge-edge usable product (other than uncoated trim, and maybe a tiny bit more). Emulsions were all going to curtain coating (at least for commodity products). Much of it was single layer inverted slot die, as well as a few instances of dual layer using a slide die. Hot melt was of course single layer slot die coated. A 1000 m/min. limit was a machine design limitation, not necessarily a coating limitation. Curtain coating liked higher speeds (or did not like slow speeds might be more accurate), but I think I recall there were some limitations at the high end of standard ranges also, but there were approaches to overcome these limitations.

Kodak could use a variety of methods and widths (using shims) and had coaters at 72", 42" (? I've forgotten the exact one here), 21", 11" and 5". Coating speeds varied from 100 f/m up to very very fast. Near to or above what you coat, and it was again machine / drying limited.

PE

 

[removed account4]

Scaling down

several years ago there was some sort of news conference and a woman from
EK/KA spoke about doing small runs / scaled down runs of emulsions "from the vault"
and it seems they are doing just that ..

Are you talking about contacting the same local authorities that threaten to fine us if we don't use fresh water to wash out our recyclables?

Oh, I feel very unprotected by those people. And I feel more protected by using my common sense.

not sure? is it ?
do you have the same common sense
as my local colleague who has no problem
dumping his dichromate bleach and cyanide fixer in his
"wet" backyard
because he was told it was OK by the guy who taught him how to make
tintypes and gum-overs ?
SSDD

 

[markjwyatt]

50” wide mentioned in the Insta feed.

Deduct 2” for selvedge yields 48” wide rolls.

#largeformatektachrome

1-2 inches per side, so 46" is probably more accurate.

 

[markjwyatt]

See this News Feed: Any effect on this post?

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...esident-of-consumer-and-film-division.160360/

 

[IzzyCat]

I've got a question as there are some people who seem to know a bit about Kodak here :

- Film's now a niche, and it seems it became a stable one. Why won't Kodak size down their real estate to only one small building to do everything in it like Ilford does ? As they may save a lot.
I understand the Rochester plant is a lovely place, yet how much does it costs to them ? Kodak may future proof themselves more by sizing down on every aspect ?

Please understand that those are uneducated questions, I'm only a curious amateur photographer.

BTW, if that Ektachrome comeback may ring a bell to Fuji's ears... But yeah, I'm dreaming a bit too much I think.

 

[RattyMouse]

I've got a question as there are some people who seem to know a bit about Kodak here :

- Film's now a niche, and it seems it became a stable one. Why won't Kodak size down their real estate to only one small building to do everything in it like Ilford does ? As they may save a lot.
I understand the Rochester plant is a lovely place, yet how much does it costs to them ? Kodak may future proof themselves more by sizing down on every aspect ?

Please understand that those are uneducated questions, I'm only a curious amateur photographer.

BTW, if that Ektachrome comeback may ring a bell to Fuji's ears... But yeah, I'm dreaming a bit too much I think.

The cost to downsize would be phenomenal. The rewards do not justify that investment.

Ilford never had the massive infrastructure that Kodak did so their situation is not applicable.

Fuji is exiting film production (aside from INSTAX) so I dont know what bell you are referring to.

 

[Prest_400]

A friend forwarded me to this podcast, with Kodak interviews and some talk about Ektachrome:
https://studioc41.net/2018/06/10/interview-kodak/
After minute ~30 there's process talk. B38 coater capabilities plus some new E6 processor is mentioned. (Where I am at the time of writing).

EDIT: Pop Science has got a neat new feature inside B38: Dead Link Removed

 

[markjwyatt]

A friend forwarded me to this podcast, with Kodak interviews and some talk about Ektachrome:
https://studioc41.net/2018/06/10/interview-kodak/
After minute ~30 there's process talk. B38 coater capabilities plus some new E6 processor is mentioned. (Where I am at the time of writing).

EDIT: Pop Science has got a neat new feature inside B38: Dead Link Removed

Interesting:

The coating process happens in perfect darkness, but it’s controlled from this 1980s masterpiece. Two rooms away, machines paint each of Ektachrome’s 15 layers onto acetate. The 52-inch-wide film rolls pass through a coating waterfall,

Sounds like Curtain coating, not slide coating; 52", approaching a meter and a half.

a cooler, and a dryer.

If it is curtain coating, likely this is lower solids materials and will take more drying to accomplish. It also implies higher speeds. I was thinking they may be using more slide coating with higher solids emulsions.

Once they reach the other side, the direction switches, and the film circuits through the whole process again. If laid end to end, the trip would stretch nearly a mile. The facility sits on a steel-reinforced concrete slab that reaches 100 feet below the ground, all the way to bedrock, negating any ambient vibration that could cause coating inconsistencies.

Implies a turn-around bar? Seems tricky on wide web with scratch sensitivity. Most coaters have multiple passes built-in, i.e., for emulsion adhesive laminate this would be unwind; coat silicon release at ground level near the unwind; go up and pass through first set of ovens, travel backwards partially then forward at ground level for second pass; chill substrate and re-moisturize; coat adhesive; go back up and pass through second set of ovens; turn back around then forward again on ground level; chill substrate and re-moisturize; laminate with face stock; rewind final roll- send to slitters. This is the configuration I am most familiar with. There are other possible configurations. Usually as the substrate leaves the ovens and turns back, it does not go all the way back to the beginning, but rather it goes back to the next unit operation on ground level. It sounds like Kodak does all this, then turns around and does it again? Or maybe the author is considering the basic process I described but characterizes it as turning around and doing it again, which does not make sense since this is a continuous process (i.e., it would not make sense to coat the exact same materials twice- stacking). Another possibility is they rewind the roll; change the coating solutions feeding the [likely slide] die(s), unwind again and go for a second pass. I suspect Photo Engineer understands what is happening.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Interesting:

The coating process happens in perfect darkness, but it’s controlled from this 1980s masterpiece. Two rooms away, machines paint each of Ektachrome’s 15 layers onto acetate. The 52-inch-wide film rolls pass through a coating waterfall,

Sounds like Curtain coating, not slide coating; 52", approaching a meter and a half.

a cooler, and a dryer.

If it is curtain coating, likely this is lower solids materials and will take more drying to accomplish. It also implies higher speeds. I was thinking they may be using more slide coating with higher solids emulsions.

Once they reach the other side, the direction switches, and the film circuits through the whole process again. If laid end to end, the trip would stretch nearly a mile. The facility sits on a steel-reinforced concrete slab that reaches 100 feet below the ground, all the way to bedrock, negating any ambient vibration that could cause coating inconsistencies.

Implies a turn-around bar? Seems tricky on wide web with scratch sensitivity. Most coaters have multiple passes built-in, i.e., for emulsion adhesive laminate this would be unwind; coat silicon release at ground level near the unwind; go up and pass through first set of ovens, travel backwards partially then forward at ground level for second pass; chill substrate and re-moisturize; coat adhesive; go back up and pass through second set of ovens; turn back around then forward again on ground level; chill substrate and re-moisturize; laminate with face stock; rewind final roll- send to slitters. This is the configuration I am most familiar with. There are other possible configurations. Usually as the substrate leaves the ovens and turns back, it does not go all the way back to the beginning, but rather it goes back to the next unit operation on ground level. It sounds like Kodak does all this, then turns around and does it again? Or maybe the author is considering the basic process I described but characterizes it as turning around and doing it again, which does not make sense since this is a continuous process (i.e., it would not make sense to coat the exact same materials twice- stacking). Another possibility is they rewind the roll; change the coating solutions feeding the [likely slide] die(s), unwind again and go for a second pass. I suspect Photo Engineer understands what is happening.

B38's mechanisms are covered in considerable detail in Bob Shanebrook's book 'Making Kodak Film' - if you go to his website there's a small thumbnail of the layout of the machine.

The machine has definitely got two coating heads.

 

[markjwyatt]

B38's mechanisms are covered in considerable detail in Bob Shanebrook's book 'Making Kodak Film' - if you go to his website there's a small thumbnail of the layout of the machine.

The machine has definitely got two coating heads.

Thanks. I have come across that website. Unfortunately no books available (checked Amazon and ebay also)!

The tiny diagram seems to indicate two coating stations. The image of coating station #1 appears to show a red (top layer) curtain dropping with edge guides. Is Bob a member here (I do not believe Photo Engineer is Bob)?

 

[Lachlan Young]

Thanks. I have come across that website. Unfortunately no books available (checked Amazon and ebay also)!

The tiny diagram seems to indicate two coating stations. The image of coating station #1 appears to show a red (top layer) curtain dropping with edge guides. Is Bob a member here (I do not believe Photo Engineer is Bob)?

Yes, his username is 'laser'

 

[halfaman]

Thanks. I have come across that website. Unfortunately no books available (checked Amazon and ebay also)!

There are some in Europe, check fotoimpex for example.

https://www.fotoimpex.de/shopen/boo...ed-second-edition-by-robert-l-shanebrook.html

 

[markjwyatt]

B38's mechanisms are covered in considerable detail in Bob Shanebrook's book 'Making Kodak Film' - if you go to his website there's a small thumbnail of the layout of the machine.

The machine has definitely got two coating heads.

There is a much better image (at least of coater #1) in this photrio thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...pug-shipping-will-resume-december-6th.142097/

I can see 7 layers on the slide die, and a very clear view of the curtain coater edge guides. Not sure what is happeneing to the left and right of the slide die? Some type of variable width deckling system?

Dead Link Removed

 

[cmacd123]

Thanks. I have come across that website. Unfortunately no books available (checked Amazon and ebay also)!

according to his web site, Both the First and second versions are already out of Print http://www.makingkodakfilm.com/ the second version is over twice the size of the first.

The Building 38 set up has two coating stations and according to the book the web is set up to turn around and reach the second station for Multi layer products. He implies that it might even be possible to run two separate simple products at the same time.

 

[cmacd123]

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Shanebrook&kn=film&sortby=17 turns up one copy at 50 bucks. (proably the first version) as well as a couple priced as "Rare Colletables"

 

[Lachlan Young]

There is a much better image (at least of coater #1) in this photrio thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...pug-shipping-will-resume-december-6th.142097/

I can see 7 layers on the slide die, and a very clear view of the curtain coater edge guides. Not sure what is happeneing to the left and right of the slide die? Some type of variable width deckling system?

Dead Link Removed

I think there's up to 8 layers available on each head - tricky to tell exactly from the image - and it's definitely curtain, not bead coating - Ilford, Agfa/ Inoviscoat, Ferrania use slide bead coating as far as is known.

 

[markjwyatt]

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Shanebrook&kn=film&sortby=17 turns up one copy at 50 bucks. (proably the first version) as well as a couple priced as "Rare Colletables"

2010 is the first edition. I will wait and see if the 2nd edition gets reissued.