Kodak Reintroduces Ektachrome.

[BAC1967]

That there are no Ektachrome experts at EK right now is both bad and good. That there are no experts there now means that it'll take them longer to get the formulation right based on the documentation than it would if there are experts there that already know how to make it. That's the bad part.

The good part is that (theoretically, at least), the people they have making it now are younger than the ones who were making it before (and are no longer with EK), so the knowledge is preserved in the form of human experience rather than documentation, which may mean that it will be easier for the knowledge to be passed on to other, younger, folks as the older ones retire.

I would assume that the documentation would be done in a way that the next person could reproduce the same results.

 

[Photo Engineer]

All I can suggest at this point is that you read Bob Shanebrook's book (2nd edition).

PE

 

[railwayman3]

Fact is that all the speculation in the world won't make any difference. Clearly Kodak think that that they have the knowledge to produce Ektachrome, whether be in records and formulae, or in the skills of available staff. If it works and film is produced, we will know they have that ability. If not, not.

 

[Nzoomed]

That there are no Ektachrome experts at EK right now is both bad and good. That there are no experts there now means that it'll take them longer to get the formulation right based on the documentation than it would if there are experts there that already know how to make it. That's the bad part.

The good part is that (theoretically, at least), the people they have making it now are younger than the ones who were making it before (and are no longer with EK), so the knowledge is preserved in the form of human experience rather than documentation, which may mean that it will be easier for the knowledge to be passed on to other, younger, folks as the older ones retire.

Yes I completley agree with your comments.

Im pretty sure they will still have some employees left (or at least some that they keep in close contact with) that have the knowledge in chemistry to follow the formulas etc.
I doubt very much that Kodak would have made the announcement if they were going to have to rely on two ex-employees in their 80's who could at any time drop away (which has since happened)

 

[ME Super]

The thing to remember is that no matter how good the documentation is, when someone leaves or retires, some institutional knowledge is lost. At least this has been my experience. It's not usually significant enough that the remaining workers cannot learn the knowledge, but again, this is the film manufacturing industry, and I suppose anything is possible. But like Nzoomed said, EK either has employees left that have the knowledge in chemistry to follow the formulas, or has access to people who do.

 

[keenmaster486]

Well, besides, we know it's possible for them to come up with something completely new anyway. It doesn't have to be an exact copy of the last Ektachrome they made.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Reversal and negative are quite different!

PE

 

[keenmaster486]

Who said anything about negative film?

How do you suppose Kodak and Fuji introduced their slide films in the first place? That's all I was saying, that there doesn't necessarily HAVE to be an existing experience base to introduce a new film. With enough time, money, and an army of engineers who know what they're doing, any company could introduce a slide film of some sort. Of course, Kodak has much more than this.

 

[Photo Engineer]

At present, Kodak engineers are all negative film engineers. Ektachrome is a reversal film. Thus my comment!

PE

 

[Nzoomed]

At present, Kodak engineers are all negative film engineers. Ektachrome is a reversal film. Thus my comment!

PE

Well in 2012, they must have had enough engineers, and I doubt the two deceased ones were working at EK at the time.
Some of them could very well have had experience with both fields anyway.

 

[MattKing]

Ron:
Do you ever get the feeling that they've managed to get you into that barn after all?

 

[keenmaster486]

Look here, even if they were all negative engineers, I don't see why they must specialize in reversal processes in order to work on such a project.

 

[MattKing]

Look here, even if they were all negative engineers, I don't see why they must specialize in reversal processes in order to work on such a project.

Ah, the enthusiasm of youth.
There is a reason that the big film manufacturers in their heyday valued and fought hard to retain skilled professional staff with decades of training and experience.
Film manufacture is complicated stuff, and it rewards concentrated specialization.
An engineer who has experience in, for example, Vision 3 movie stock won't have the same experience in reversal processes. And the Vision 3 movie stock is the only recent major product introduction from Eastman Kodak.
I expect that Photo Engineer would tell you if the subject came up that his engineering work for Kodak was far more complex than the engineering work he did for his previous employer, NASA.

 

[Nzoomed]

Look here, even if they were all negative engineers, I don't see why they must specialize in reversal processes in order to work on such a project.

They just need to turn a negative into a positive!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Reversal and negative are quite different!...

Ron, perhaps you should embrace the sentiment on my favorite observed bumper sticker:

"I feel much better since I gave up hope"​

Ah, the enthusiasm of youth...

Here's an alternative expression.

When I was growing up and advocated or engaged in something less than wise, my late father would recall his early years by recounting some event from them, starting with:

"When I was young and stupid..."​

 

[railwayman3]

Over the years many companies have manufactured perfectly usable color reversal film....Ilford, Agfa, Gevaert, Dynachrome, Ferrania, Adox, Konica, Orwo, Ansco, and probably others. The knowledge and skills of making color film have not been confined to one or two special people at Rochester ? Even Ektachrome was coated in the US and the UK, probably elsewhere, and Kodachrome in US, UK and France. The Ekta and Koda which I used over the years seemed consistent whichever factory supplied it.

 

[MattKing]

Ron, perhaps you should embrace the sentiment on my favorite observed bumper sticker:

"I feel much better since I gave up hope"​

Here's an alternative expression.

When I was growing up and advocated or engaged in something less than wise, my late father would recall his early years by recounting some event from them, starting with:

"When I was young and stupid..."​

Sal:
I like keenmaster's enthusiasm. We need more 18 year olds who care.
He/she just needs to stop describing the "difficult and complex" things he is unfamiliar with as "easy and simple".
I sure wish I had energy that I had when I was 18....

 

[Pioneer]

Everyone's experiences and knowledge are never completely documented.

What has been documented can be lost or damaged amazingly fast.

I worked for many, many years for a mining company. They once had a very serious accident destroying much of the mine shaft structure through which all workers, supplies and mined ore traveled. The accident literally shut down the mine for weeks and affected many workers and their families. The investigation revealed that certain basic maintenance processes were no longer being done. Over the years senior workers had left taking their valuable memories with them. Documentation and checklists had been lost and then reproduced from memory. As-built information had been stored away and forgotten, some of it damaged by moisture and rodents. Technology changed and new materials were substituted. All of this over a period of about 20 years. The structure was quite robust but eventually the lack of proper maintenance and the introduction of newer, untested materials took their toll and parts of the structure collapsed.

I suspect that the chemistry and production processes for producing color reversal film is almost certainly as complex as maintaining the structure of a large mine shaft extending thousands of feet into the earth, probably far more complex. I doubt that Kodak employees expected any of these processes to ever be revived and much of the knowledge and documentation will now take time to bring back into the mainstream. I would believe it probably will require more than just two 80 year old employees to run and maintain such a process so that means another group of people have to be newly trained in these processes that people once did almost automatically.

All of this is certainly possible, and has already been done once. But it will likely take some time. I am very glad that Kodak seems willing to step forward and make this possible again.

 

[Cholentpot]

Everyone's experiences and knowledge are never completely documented.

What has been documented can be lost or damaged amazingly fast.

I worked for many, many years for a mining company. They once had a very serious accident destroying much of the mine shaft structure through which all workers, supplies and mined ore traveled. The accident literally shut down the mine for weeks and affected many workers and their families. The investigation revealed that certain basic maintenance processes were no longer being done. Over the years senior workers had left taking their valuable memories with them. Documentation and checklists had been lost and then reproduced from memory. As-built information had been stored away and forgotten, some of it damaged by moisture and rodents. Technology changed and new materials were substituted. All of this over a period of about 20 years. The structure was quite robust but eventually the lack of proper maintenance and the introduction of newer, untested materials took their toll and parts of the structure collapsed.

I suspect that the chemistry and production processes for producing color reversal film is almost certainly as complex as maintaining the structure of a large mine shaft extending thousands of feet into the earth, probably far more complex. I doubt that Kodak employees expected any of these processes to ever be revived and much of the knowledge and documentation will now take time to bring back into the mainstream. I would believe it probably will require more than just two 80 year old employees to run and maintain such a process so that means another group of people have to be newly trained in these processes that people once did almost automatically.

All of this is certainly possible, and has already been done once. But it will likely take some time. I am very glad that Kodak seems willing to step forward and make this possible again.

I'm in the corner of 'If it was done before it can be done again.'

What was done is Science and Chemistry. This is not magic, nor alchemy. It may take a while to get the kinks and bugs out of a system but I don't believe there are Wizards and Mugwumps that are the sole guardians of knowledge.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, to start with, I never worked for NASA. I worked for the USAF who leased space at the Cape to NASA, and thus we were overseeing daily tasks such as photography, where I worked.

As for Ektachrome, it is like having an electric car and a gasoline car. Both have 4 wheels and motors but one engineer cannot directly transition to another. The technology is vastly different. Same for reversal and negative. I'm not saying that it cannot be done, but I am saying that it will be difficult.

We had an engineer who had made a product his entire life, but he died suddenly and we had to replace him with a new engineer from the same department. It took 6 months before we could deliver usable product. These two guys worked side by side for years, but the fine points of doing things were lost and had to be reinvented. Photo product making (color) is very arcane.

It used to be much simpler but the products were not as good.

Edit to correct a word in the first paragraph.

PE

 

[MattKing]

Well, to start with, I never worked for NASA. I worked for the USAF who leased space at the Cape to NASA, and thus we were overseeing daily tasks such as photographer, where I worked.

Thanks Ron for the correction.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Photo product making (color) is very arcane.

Making color film isn't difficult, but making HIGH QUALITY color film is VERY difficult!

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Journey down memory lane. Accentuate the positive!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...I sure wish I had energy that I had when I was 18....

There are a few other things appropriate for that sentiment. Hair, in my case, is one of them.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Journey down memory lane. Accentuate the positive!

Jerry, I feel that they are after me. I'm 'mister in between". In a barn. Wearing chains.

Sometimes, someone brings me a sandwich or soup from Panera - If I'm lucky.

PE