One would hope that Eastman would pass along to Alaris their lower costs to manufacture as well if that is occurring. But as we've discussed before, it's nearly impossible to decipher the profit margins each company uses.
Kodak price cut on 120 film
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One would hope that Eastman would pass along to Alaris their lower costs to manufacture as well if that is occurring. But as we've discussed before, it's nearly impossible to decipher the profit margins each company uses.
MattKing
Moderator
As I understand it - costs haven't really gone down for EK, but things like reliability and predictability of supply have improved.
Law of supply and demand is built on set of assumptions. One of them is that manufacturers and customers behave in rational manner. Rational manufacturer would NOT lower the price when demand goes up, unless it can also increase supply to more than offset the lost profit, because of lower price, by increased quantity.
Greater demand can lower the price ONLY if supply can increase as well. There is no rational reason for manufacturer to lower the price when it can sell all its product at current price point and can't increase production.
@Agulliver said that Kodak can't produce enough 120 film. Mr. Church said that now is a good time to lower the price, at the same time denying that there is any problem they can see on the demand side for 120 film.
On the other hand, we have Lomography openly stating that demand for 120 was very low at current prices.
I can post links with snapshots of online stores showing supply of Kodak 120 film all day long. For example, there are 10 snapshots of FotoImpex store saved in the Wayback Machine for years '22 and '23. Only on one date there is one Kodak 120 film out of stock. Every other Kodak 120 film (BW, C-41 or E-6) on ever other saved date was in stock in online and their walk-in store. I encourage you to do the same for Lomography store. Or any other semi-serious online store.
Marketing PR and reality clearly don't agree. Either reality or marketing is wrong.
No, it's not that hard. I've presented some numbers in that thread (every single one can be verified by public financial statement) that can give you a not so rough picture. But some just need to believe that Eastman Kodak has Alaris squeezed on a 0,5% margin although that is backed by absolutely nothing (data or even common sense).
So, here we are, Kodak Alaris earning nothing on Kodak film can drop their price by 35% and 120 film was flying off the shelves at those prices...
For uk readers nik and trik currently have deals on a quantity of recently expired or short dated Kodak film in 120
ntphotoworks.com
Kodak 120 Roll Film Special Offers, Huge Savings!
If you shoot medium format film and you have found this listing you're in for a treat, prices seen here are SO discounted you are literally paying trade price.
ntphotoworks.com
Have they actually said that?
First thing you see when you go to lomography.com (they've been running with this for more than a month now):
We've noticed a growing reservation within the analogue community when it comes to the distinctive and charming 120 format. We refuse to let 120 film fade away so we now formally declare it an endangered species! To support film amateurs or professionals worldwide in their medium format practice, we're excited to announce significant price reductions on our 120 films. Medium format photography should be a breeze, not a budget-breaker. Let’s come together, Lomographers, to keep the spirit of 120 film alive and thriving for generations to come!
They have film with 2023/12 expiry date for sale with special discount on top of regular 20-30% price drop for CN films.
We've noticed a growing reservation within the analogue community when it comes to the distinctive and charming 120 format. We refuse to let 120 film fade away so we now formally declare it an endangered species! To support film amateurs or professionals worldwide in their medium format practice, we're excited to announce significant price reductions on our 120 films. Medium format photography should be a breeze, not a budget-breaker. Let’s come together, Lomographers, to keep the spirit of 120 film alive and thriving for generations to come!
They have film with 2023/12 expiry date for sale with special discount on top of regular 20-30% price drop for CN films.
The 100 and 400 perform rather like 80s or early 90s pre-Gold Kodacolor film. Which they are widely suspected of being. The colours are more neutral and don't "pop" like the more saturated Gold. A dull day looks dull, which suits me. The 800 is more modern and probably related to the film in Kodak single use cameras.
Who knows what's really going on? In this case, we have a guy at Alaris who doesn't really know what's going on at Eastman making claims. It;s true that greater demand usually causes prices to go up. But manufacturers also lower prices to increase demand. Do we really know how much Eastman can produce? As Matt motioned, there were supply issues before. If those are over, maybe they can double their output.
Also, competition forces changes to prices. As some have stated here, too high prices may turn people off in the future and get them to switch. So even though you're getting rid of all your production now, they have to think about tomorrow's customers. They don't want to shoot themselves in the foot by being too greedy now even though they can sell all their production at higher prices. When I was in business, I was in the fortunate position of being a lone supplier of certain maintenance services. I kept the monthly service prices as high as possible before I thought my customers would dump the system and pay for a new system with lower service costs. Sort of what Adobe does now.
Like ColorPlus in 35mm…
Indeed so. Which is alleged to be the reason why there's no Lomography branded 200ISO CN film.
I don't think anyone has done exhaustive lab tests to prove that the Lomography films and Color Plus are identical or almost identical to early 90s Kodacolor....but they behave that way in normal use.
No lab tests and no data sheets and not even any good rumor. Just practical experience , as you write. I recall one time I asked Ron Mowrey about it and his reply was, “I’d have to kill you if I told you.” I assume that he was joking. But it really might be that Top Secret.
Thanks @brbo and @Agulliver
People a bit more in the loop than ordinary consumers like myself strongly suspect they are Kodacolor 90s formulations, perhaps with minor tweaks. Which makes sense because Kodak kept Kodacolor VR on under a couple of different names for years in 200 and 400 ISO versions as a cheap consumer film for supermarkets and as a "buy D&P, get a free film" that many large labs used to offer. That would neatly explain why Color Plus still actually says "Kodacolor" on the cassette, and why Lomography 400 performs like faster version of Color Plus. The 100 is probably just a resurrected Kodacolor VR that they can still coat.
MattKing
Moderator
Kodak Alaris has as much or more role in the price paid by consumers as EK does. What they do costs as much or more as what EK does.
We must remember that it is Kodak-Alaris which actually sells to the bigger photographic dealers and to the distributors, who then sell to smaller shops. Everyone you and I buy Kodak still film from relies on whatever price K-A sets. If product availability and manufacturing costs have finally stabilised, that allows K-A to look ahead and make some predictions about the market conditions that might permit price reductions. It may also allow better and more efficient distribution channels to develop, meaning no more big price increases and possible price drops in the future.
We can but hope this is what we are seeing.
We can but hope this is what we are seeing.
If this was the primary driver behind these price drops, we'd see that development in 135 format too which is much bigger than 120.
At the moment this is strictly a response to a low demand in 120 at current price point. Not to say that Alaris doesn't have a lot of room for price adjustment should demand in 135 get weaker or new supply of quality colour film emerges...
At the moment this is strictly a response to a low demand in 120 at current price point. Not to say that Alaris doesn't have a lot of room for price adjustment should demand in 135 get weaker or new supply of quality colour film emerges...
It may be notable that Color Plus, the "budget" C41 film...still experiences issues in supply not meeting demand. If "a new supplier" is able to offer a similar product, that could free up Kodak to concentrate more on gold, Ultramax and the pro films which will further stabilise supply and hopefully result in price drops for 35mm.
But it's all speculation right now.
Yes, I've never understood the ColorPlus 200 obsession. It's the worst colour film you could shoot and more expensive than Gold 200 which has been pretty much always in stock in one way or the other (24exp./36exp./1pack/3pack) for the last 6 months or so at dealers that have semi-decent traffic to bother with regular restocking.
I always thought that ColorPlus 200 shortage was because Kodak knows this sh*t should not be out there with Kodak name on it. It's worse than Lomo CN 100 for crying out loud... Seriously, I'd rather shoot Lomography Color '92 from Inoviscoat if I wanted something a bit different.
1. Some people, myself included, prefer the more neutral colour palette to Gold's more saturated colours. Gold was designed to make dull holday weather look sunny. I just find it overblows all the reds and makes actual reds look like brown. Just not to my tastes. YMMV. Clearly millions love it.
2. Color Plus has *always* been substantially cheaper than Gold in the UK at least. And it was when I was travelling around Spain just before the pandemic. It's the gateway film for film photography for a lot of people in great part because it is cheaper. If if has been more expensive than Gold in recent times where you live, that is because of the unavailability of Color Plus. That is not the usual status quo.
3. Colour film availability is a much longer term issue than the last six months. It goes back to 2016. By 2020 there was a backlog for Kodak alone of 30 million 135 films ordered. The single biggest product in that 30 million? Color Plus.
I don't know what you find so objectionable about Color Plus.
It's basically an 80s budget film, for good and bad.
It has been adopted as universal quick "vibe" fix, for a whole mass of people. That is again both a good and a bad thing.
Good in that it get's people using and thinking about film.
Bad in that it becomes what film is for many people.
@brbo I don't find ColorPlus 200 objectionable. It's a bit grainy, but that's all. It doesn't have to be very saturated, nor absolutely neutral. It has a rather warm palette, which I find quite pleasant. It used to be very cheap, like 2,5€ per 36exp film few years ago, which made it very popular. At today's prices it's not an attractive choice.
In the end, if you want no grain and whatever other palette, digital is the obvious choice, not film.
In the end, if you want no grain and whatever other palette, digital is the obvious choice, not film.
Grain, latitude, hue separation.
Wonder how many people raving about ColorPlus actually shot it side-by-side with Gold. Even if you have your film scanned in a lab that makes every film look pretty much the same, I can't see much point in going for ColorPlus. Days when I could buy it for 1,99 EUR are gone and even then paying more than twice as much for Portra seemed like a no-brainer...
Not that I'm complaining, of course. It's much better to have a lot of folk driving up the price of the film I don't like than the opposite.
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I never tried ColorPlus for the very reason that I decided to spend more in the hobby, thus went for Gold or Portra. I did shoot superia 200 and c200 for a bit, prepandemic. Plus in, say 2010-15, it was positioned as the cheap film and a bit "meh" reviewed by users. Likewise, in 120 I still have not yet tried Gold 200 as I could get Portra at equal prices... But I may soon grab a couple pro packs at the 39€ price level of Nordfoto.
However, ColorPlus film has been priced in some outlets as more expensive than Gold or even at Portra levels.
In this case, we are thinking old school, where we want to maximise technical quality. For better or worse, grain, a muted/imperfect color palette and other characteristics are desirable and seen as the go-to by a new generation.
But the Inoviscoat C41 films are not yet there, the new to come NC200 should supposedly be neutral and akin to a good film. But Kodak and Fuji accumulate the large know how of color film and as discussed around, any competitive film would take a lot of effort to reach even the consumer Kodacolor film. Inoviscoat are ground on Agfa legacy, so let's see.
However, ColorPlus film has been priced in some outlets as more expensive than Gold or even at Portra levels.
In this case, we are thinking old school, where we want to maximise technical quality. For better or worse, grain, a muted/imperfect color palette and other characteristics are desirable and seen as the go-to by a new generation.
But the Inoviscoat C41 films are not yet there, the new to come NC200 should supposedly be neutral and akin to a good film. But Kodak and Fuji accumulate the large know how of color film and as discussed around, any competitive film would take a lot of effort to reach even the consumer Kodacolor film. Inoviscoat are ground on Agfa legacy, so let's see.
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