Kodak price cut on 120 film

[GregY]

$40 for a 5 pack of TMX at B&H--that seems better than it was (though I honestly don't remember what it was a month ago.)

I haven't bought TMX in 120 lately but last summer 2022 35mm/36 was $9.95 at B&H....it's currently at $10.95..... i don't think we'll see immediate changes....

 

[MattKing]

I'm thinking it will. All it takes is one major seller like B&H to pass along the lower price and the others will likely fall in line.

The lower price would have to get to B&H first. There is at least one level of distribution in between.
As B&H sell too much stuff at unsustainably low margin, my somewhat fantastic hope is that it is other retailers who get the benefit of this

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Beau Photo is currently $20 for 120 TMY. I refuse to pay that much. If this price decrease reaches here, I may be persuaded to buy a bunch of rolls... or I'll just order from B&H... buy a bunch. Free shipping.

 

[GregY]

I don't think we'll see lower retail prices until/maybe stores re-order at lower wholesale prices

 

[MattKing]

I don't think we'll see lower retail prices until/maybe stores re-order at lower wholesale prices

I don't think many stores are maintaining big inventories of Kodak film. I expect Beau Photo has been buying in the smallest quantities available to them - it certainly looked that way the last time I was in and looked at the shelves behind the counter.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Be careful if buying through Amazon. I got burned once with short expiration dates. So I stick tom B&H now.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

You can contact the seller to get their expiration dates before buying.

 

[GregY]

I don't think many stores are maintaining big inventories of Kodak film. I expect Beau Photo has been buying in the smallest quantities available to them - it certainly looked that way the last time I was in and looked at the shelves behind the counter.

Since i don't live in the city, I typically buy in bulk from B&H....i'll be watching for any price changes

 

[Sal Santamaura]

I don't think many stores are maintaining big inventories of Kodak film...

At this moment B&H has more than 500 5-packs of 120 TMX in stock. That's the maximum quantity its system will permit putting in one's shopping cart.

 

[mgb74]

Would you mind naming their competitors in C41 films?

Canon, Nikon, and every other manufacturer of digital cameras. Do they make C41 film - no. But they produce color images. We can argue that film images are superior, but that's becoming less and less true every year.

Film has become an entirely discretionary purchase. No one "needs" film to produce an image. No one "needs" film to make a living. We like using film but will only pay so much for it. Manufacturers have to worry about killing the (somewhat) golden goose as once you discourage the use of film by raising prices, it can be hard to lure people back.

Now if the cost to produce is high then that's what you have to charge.

 

[Agulliver]

Kodak Alaris says it's not because of lower demand, but because they take opportunity to lower the prices whenever they can!


Andrew Church, Kodak Alaris’s EMEA business manager, told Kosmo Foto: “There is no general price drop but we are running some end of year promotions on some 120 films. These films have been reduced to our distributor customers by approximately the amount shown in the table:

He added: “Hopefully the distributors will pass on the full reductions, it may depend on the levels of inventory they are currently holding.”

Church said the reduced prices were not because of a fall in demand for medium format. “120 sales are fairly steady recently, but we will take an opportunity to reduce prices if we can.”

(source: kosmofoto.com)

We know demand hasn't slackened. Kodak still can't keep up with demand. The brick and mortar shops in my area still cannot get Kodak C41 films in 135 or 120 in the quantities they want, as regularly as they want. And I'd be prepared to trust Andy Church, he's in a position to know how healthy sales are and about any price changes.

When I spoke with him last year he said that price drops were something that KA would like to see but that could only happen if demand continued, and only in time. Of course his advice was to "buy more Kodak film".

There is also a slight possibility that whatever Harman is going to launch will impact December/Christmas sales of Kodak colour film, and that could affect thinking on pricing.

 

[mtnbkr]

Be careful if buying through Amazon. I got burned once with short expiration dates. So I stick tom B&H now.

I don't know why anyone would buy photographic items from Amazon given B&H's shipping speeds (not to mention their price, service, and just generally supporting a photography-oriented company rather than Amazon). Just this Friday I ordered some film and other supplies from B&H and had it Saturday morning with regular free shipping. I live in VA, FWIW.

Chris

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I was at Kerrisdale Cameras in the mall here, and they have no clue about any Kodak price cut on 120 films. Hopefully they'll look into it...Regardless of price cuts, I would at least like to see a few more Kodak options on their shelf, instead of the just Tri-X. Lots of Ilford, though...

 

[brbo]

We know demand hasn't slackened. Kodak still can't keep up with demand. The brick and mortar shops in my area still cannot get Kodak C41 films in 135 or 120 in the quantities they want, as regularly as they want. And I'd be prepared to trust Andy Church, he's in a position to know how healthy sales are and about any price changes.

When I spoke with him last year he said that price drops were something that KA would like to see but that could only happen if demand continued, and only in time.

I've checked 3 major online stores in EU. Every Kodak 120 film (C-41, E-6, BW) is in stock except one film (Portra 160) in one store. It’s been like that for quite a while now.

But lets disregard that fact for a second. Andy Church tells you that Alaris can't keep up with demand and that is the reason why they are bringing down the price. But, what does your brain tell you what normally happens in a situation of high demand and low supply?

And why would you rather trust mr. Church than your own brain?

The Harman story at least makes some sense. Although, I'd think that if Alaris was fearing the effect of a serious competition in C-41 market, it would probably cut the price of consumer 135 films as well, no? That's ignoring the fact that the sensible move would be to wait out for Harman's price point. There will definitely be a novelty factor period where Harman film will sell well regardless of whether they significantly undercut Kodak or not.

 

[Agulliver]

I've checked 3 major online stores in EU. Every Kodak 120 film (C-41, E-6, BW) is in stock except one film (Portra 160) in one store. It’s been like that for quite a while now.

But lets disregard that fact for a second. Andy Church tells you that Alaris can't keep up with demand and that is the reason why they are bringing down the price. But, what does your brain tell you what normally happens in a situation of high demand and low supply?

And why would you rather trust mr. Church than your own brain?

The Harman story at least makes some sense. Although, I'd think that if Alaris was fearing the effect of a serious competition in C-41 market, it would probably cut the price of consumer 135 films as well, no? That's ignoring the fact that the sensible move would be to wait out for Harman's price point. There will definitely be a novelty factor period where Harman film will sell well regardless of whether they significantly undercut Kodak or not.

Kodak got a lot of colour negative film into the warehouses 2-3 months ago, hence stocks are OK with retailers at the moment. Surely you're not denying that there have been consistent problems getting film, especially colour negative film, into the market for at least the last 6-7 years.

It's not just Andy Church and it's not Alaris. Anyone who has any knowledge of the industry has been saying the same thing for years, Kodak cannot manufacture enough product in Rochester because they were caught out when demand surged circa 2016. They're still trying to clear a backlog of some 30 million 135 films. Those facts speak for themselves and frankly I've got better things to do than debate them for the hundredth time.

I've no reason to doubt Andy Church. I've spoken with him myself and find him an honourable man who certainly tells the truth as far as he knows it. He won't know all the secrets of Rochester but he knows what's going on at Alaris, and it's literally just down the road from me.

If Harman are launching a C41 film, chances are they've already let Eastman-Kodak and Kodak-Alaris know. Though the expected price point may not have been communicated, it's just about possible that Harman could undercut Kodak because they have spare confectioning capacity - which is Kodak's main bottleneck.

 

[brbo]

Kodak got a lot of colour negative film into the warehouses 2-3 months ago, hence stocks are OK with retailers at the moment. Surely you're not denying that there have been consistent problems getting film, especially colour negative film, into the market for at least the last 6-7 years.

It's not just Andy Church and it's not Alaris. Anyone who has any knowledge of the industry has been saying the same thing for years, Kodak cannot manufacture enough product in Rochester because they were caught out when demand surged circa 2016. They're still trying to clear a backlog of some 30 million 135 films. Those facts speak for themselves and frankly I've got better things to do than debate them for the hundredth time.

I've no reason to doubt Andy Church. I've spoken with him myself and find him an honourable man who certainly tells the truth as far as he knows it. He won't know all the secrets of Rochester but he knows what's going on at Alaris, and it's literally just down the road from me.

If Harman are launching a C41 film, chances are they've already let Eastman-Kodak and Kodak-Alaris know. Though the expected price point may not have been communicated, it's just about possible that Harman could undercut Kodak because they have spare confectioning capacity - which is Kodak's main bottleneck.

If you haven't got much time, then lets focus on what I said instead of repeating what has been said hundreds of times before (when it was true).

1. I don't believe that supply/demand laws work differently for Alaris. Btw, this is thread about 120 film. There hasn't been a problem with availability of Kodak 120 film (sold either by Alaris or Lomography) for the past two years ('22, '23). Lomography is running extra discounts on short dated 120. Nordfoto, too.
2. I don't believe that 135 format is somehow magically unaffected by potential competition from Harman C-41 film.
3. I don't see any logic in Harman sharing their plans about competing products with Kodak or Alaris.

 

[Anon Ymous]

I've no reason to doubt Andy Church. I've spoken with him myself and find him an honourable man who certainly tells the truth as far as he knows it. He won't know all the secrets of Rochester but he knows what's going on at Alaris, and it's literally just down the road from me.

I have no reason to believe that Mr Church isn't a fine guy, but his position dictates what he'll say. I mean, would you expect him to say something like, "you'll pay through the nose suckers!"?

If Harman are launching a C41 film, chances are they've already let Eastman-Kodak and Kodak-Alaris know.

They definitely have no reason to let them know. A leak is possible, but not part of a plan.

 

[MattKing]

If it is C-41:
1) Eastman Kodak may be coating it for them;
2) if they have someone else coating it, and it is on polyester substrate, Eastman Kodak may be manufacturing it for them.

 

[Anon Ymous]

1) Eastman Kodak may be coating it for them;

IIIRC, someone mentioned in the other mega-thread that Ilford denied that it's a collaboration with other companies.

 

[Arcadia4]

We have all seen a revival in demand for film and the supply problems that has gone with it even pre covid disruption. The strongest demand is for colour film and in 35mm more than any other format.

Kodak faced with a huge backlog of orders and seeing profiteering by many retailers and resellers - e.g. Gold 3-packs one retailer was selling for £18 were being sold for £30-45. Therefore by increasing the price they could both bring supply and demand into line and take a bigger share of the profit.

However the steep price rises (most recently in march 23) against a recessionary backdrop in my view have simply exceeded the market limits and killed demand for some films and formats, which for most people are a discretionary purchase.

For B&W there are similar quality choices with ilford, i like tmax but spending more than double ilford prices in 120 made no sense.

In colour whilst portra will always be able to sustain higher prices, the same isnt true for Gold 200 in 120 aimed at the amateur market originally at £40/5 but revised prices (officially around £64/5) were just too high for the users its aimed at. So i see the reductions as simply rebalancing supply and demand.

If harman have come up with a standard colour neg film, i am sure people in the industry will know or have guessed because its a ‘small world’, as they will need to buy certain materials. I would expect it to be a gold 200 competitor, priced at a very similar level, and with some ‘link’ to an existing supplier, either directly in terms of supplied coated product, acquired IP or ‘people with relevant knowledge’.

 

[MattKing]

IIIRC, someone mentioned in the other mega-thread that Ilford denied that it's a collaboration with other companies.

And as discussed in that thread, there is a difference between collaboration and contracting with a manufacturer to supply you with a major component for a product that you subsequently confection/finish into final form for sale.
Harman probably can't coat colour emulsions, but they certainly have the capability to turn master rolls of colour stock into individual rolls of cut to size, spooled, edge printed and either sprocketed or backing paper equipped film.

 

[brbo]

I would expect it to be a gold 200 competitor, priced at a very similar level, and with some ‘link’ to an existing supplier, either directly in terms of product, acquired IP or ‘people with relevant knowledge’.

Agree. It wouldn't be wise for Harman to go to price war with Alaris. I think they have a pretty good idea of the current margins Alaris is bagging in. Imagine Alaris doing the same price cut for 135 Gold 200 that they did to 120. If Harman would then be aiming at offering even a modest 15% savings to Gold 200 they would have to price their new C-41 film at less than 6 EUR! For comparison, their FP4+ sells for around 9 EUR in EU.

If Harman is indeed introducing C-41 film, it will have to be different enough for people to want to shoot it for what it is and not for how much it costs. Something like what Adox is doing with their Color Mission 200. Be different, start slow, ensure big enough margins and then build on that.

I don't believe for a second that they are coming up with just a Kodak coated C-41 film (I don't even believe it's a C-41 film), but if they did... Bring back Portra 400NC. I'd buy it for 15 EUR even if it had a stupid name like Phoenix...

 

[Agulliver]

IIIRC, someone mentioned in the other mega-thread that Ilford denied that it's a collaboration with other companies.

On Instagram, someone following the new Harman Photo account offered the guess that the new film might be a collaboration between Harman and FujiFilm, to manufacture C41 film. Harman Photo replied that was completely wrong. The poster then wondered about Harman working with Ferrania or someone else and Harman Photo's reply was "No colabs".

But on the so-called "mega-thread" (it's nothing like the 760 page threads you get on Doctor Who forums) it has been speculated that people have differing ideas on what a "collaboration" is....and that it could include Eastman Kodak coating for Harman. My view is that would be a collaboration, but others see a collaboration as including both parties sharing the financial risk.

As for 120 colour film always being available, tell that to the 6 shops that I am in frequent contact with. They haven't seen any at all since the initial push of Gold 120 in the Spring of last year. The distributors they deal with can't get any from K-A. Maybe the major players can, though when I was looking for Gold in 120 a few months back I couldn't find any but got a great deal on Lomography CN 400.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

If you haven't got much time, then lets focus on what I said instead of repeating what has been said hundreds of times before (when it was true).

1. I don't believe that supply/demand laws work differently for Alaris. Btw, this is thread about 120 film. There hasn't been a problem with availability of Kodak 120 film (sold either by Alaris or Lomography) for the past two years ('22, '23). Lomography is running extra discounts on short dated 120. Nordfoto, too.
2. I don't believe that 135 format is somehow magically unaffected by potential competition from Harman C-41 film.
3. I don't see any logic in Harman sharing their plans about competing products with Kodak or Alaris.

In general I agree that greater demand raises prices. However, it's possible that with greater demand, the price to manufacturer can go down substantially and those savings can be passed along. Kodak's prices are generally higher than their competitors. Surely, they're aware of that. If lowering their prices can regain lost customers from other brands, they can increase overall bottom line profits at lower individual prices per roll.

 

[MattKing]

The greater demand may actually have a greater effect on lowering distribution costs than it does on manufacturing costs. And it is distribution costs that have the big effect on how much KA's pricing runs independent from the factors that influence EK's pricing.
FWIW, my understanding is that the cost uncertainties that EK was experiencing have stabilized, but that doesn't mean that their costs have gone down.