Kodak no longer following "2 year rule" for expiration dates?

[brbo]

I assume the 'retail monkey' in the case of Drew was used with a good dose of self-deprecation, given the fact that Drew has pointed out many times having spent his career working in an operational-level retail function himself.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Alessandro - Shoot digital? That's a default, not an answer. And why would one want to be bound to consumer statistics. Billions of greasy fast food hamburgers get eaten in this country every year - that fact doesn't make them any better, and plenty of people still prefer to grill their own meat.

I joyfully did plenty of 35mm color photography in my teenage years - good ole Kodachrome days. But let's face it - you end up with something the size of a postage stamp that can only be enlarged so much before it starts falling apart.

No big difference between films? Are you a printmaker or just a shooter? A harpsichord is not a piano, and neither of them is a pipe organ. We have reasons for being specific.

 

[ChrisGalway]

This is laughable. You buy film in the amount you need. Stop. If you can't find your preferred film, you buy another one that is similar. No big deal, no big difference. There are an abundant offer of films nowadays.
For color?
Shoot digital and life it's good. Stop. You have to understand that you, large format shooter, represents the 0,0000001% of all potential film consumer in the world. Statistically not significant.
I completely can afford any 35mm film if I need. Problem solved.
What I wanna say? Is that you can buy and freeze films if you want, but can't extend your behaviour to the general film consumer nor refrain the general film shooter to complain about prices hikes.

"For color? Shoot digital and life it's good. "

Well the same could be said for B&W ... why use film for B&W? Answer: it's called a hobby!

 

[DREW WILEY]

I didn't intend to offend retail workers in general. Yes, I worked in retail too, and as a buyer was responsible for about 15 million dollars worth of inventory. When it came to things like pre-catalyzed industrial sealants with a limited shelf life, and the stock wasn't routinely rotated, when the foundation contractor returned utterly frustrated, they called the irresponsible person involved far worse things than a monkey. ... But yes, I had my own background learning curve or early monkey days before getting to the point in my career when it was my turn to yell at others.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Alessandro - Shoot digital? That's a default, not an answer. And why would one want to be bound to consumer statistics. Billions of greasy fast food hamburgers get eaten in this country every year - that fact doesn't make them any better, and plenty of people still prefer to grill their own meat.

The comparison is not apt. First of all large format shooters are way too scarce than people grilling their own meat in percentage.
You're right: just because there are more 35mm users doesn't mean that 35mm is better. But it is statistically much more relevant and marketing and film production will prevail for 35mm than for large format. That is, in economies of scale this translates into a wider availability and possibly a lower price for 35mm updated to the linear meter.
So, availability favors clearly 35mm over large format.
I'm a casual shooter and not a printmaker and, as before, you can't expand your thoughts to stockpile films believing that everybody here are professional photographers or printmakers.
Third point: yes, as of today, I think colors photography is vastly better in digital than in film. For b&w I can't comment because I develop them only as a slides so there is not an "equivalent" in digital for the average user.

Well the same could be said for B&W ... why use film for B&W? Answer: it's called a hobby!

Yes, of course it is. But as a hobby it should never generale stress. Worring about stockpiling films, worring for price incease both generate definetly stress. Imho.
For example, the highest rewards I get from b&w developing is when I get excellent results and I didn't expect them, for example when I use expired films and chemistry. That's what I call the soothing magical quality of film photography.
But the again, I'm a casual shooter not a professional.

 

[DREW WILEY]

35mm film, 120 roll film, and sheet film are all different coating operations, and not just different sizes of the same thing. Kodak is not only doing all of the above in multiple kinds of color film, but is actually upgrading their capacity to make more. They wouldn't be doing that level of ongoing serious investment if there wasn't still a distinct market for it. You also need to think in terms of surface area of film. For example, every single sheet of 8x10 film exposed - a single click of the shutter - is equivalent in surface area to more than two 36 exposure rolls of 35mm film. Halve that for the more popular 4x5 format, which is selling rather briskly.

I certainly can't afford to be a "machine-gunner" in any kind of film format; but there are apparently a fair number of wealthy people who can afford to burn an awful lot of sheet film on a single trip or project. Otherwise, the inventories of such products wouldn't be selling out so rapidly like they are. Look at the bigger picture.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Kodak is not only doing all of the above in multiple kinds of color film, but is actually upgrading their capacity to make more. They wouldn't be doing that level of ongoing serious investment if there wasn't still a distinct market for it.

I really don't think the color film "resurgence" is due to 8"x10" or similar mormat requests.
Having said that, I AM looking at the bigger picture, that is mainly 35mm and also 120 (beneath).

If I were to go and visit, say Japan, I would certainly take a digital camera with me and then an analogue camera. The digital one to be sure that I can get at least some good photos, the analogue one more for nostalgia for the old days than anything else, but I wouldn't rely completely on it alone. My photography philosophy is street photography, URBEX and documentary photography. I have no ambitions either as an artist or as a professional.
Maybe this helps to understand the intent of my answers.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, Alessandro. What is Kodak actually doing? They have their own reasons. No resurgence is ever going to match past demand, pre-digital that is. But Kodak isn't thinking like some giant octopus corporation anymore either.
They now have a more targeted approach suitable to making a profit on lower volume output. But it still needs a multi-pronged approach. Disposable cameras and so forth might just be another passing fad like it was before. And you can't go by what is being sold in mass distribution retail outlets. That's not how pro films are distributed.

Nowadays things like volume cuts of special film sizes come through pooled orders, or else feast versus famine status at certain big photo suppliers. During famine season, the film in question might get awfully expensive, or even impossible to find. That's why we stock up and freeze it during feast season, while it's still abundant.

 

[koraks]

Aaaannd...back to expiration dates again, folks. Thanks.

 

[DREW WILEY]

What I should have checked the expiration date of was the frozen turkey my wife sneaked into the bottom of my film freezer, then forgot about. It certainly didn't look appetizing after fifteen years in there, and I don't think that had anything to do with the effect of cosmic rays.

 

[mshchem]

I got 3 propacks of Kodak TMY-2, delivered FedEx from B&H this morning, 09/26 expir date (sorry develop by) .

 

[Oldwino]

All of the film I‘ve purchased this fall has been short dated (soon to “expire”), and at a discount because of it. I suspect the elongation of the use by date is simply to help out the grumbling retailers.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

35mm film, 120 roll film, and sheet film are all different coating operations, and not just different sizes of the same thing. Kodak is not only doing all of the above in multiple kinds of color film, but is actually upgrading their capacity to make more. They wouldn't be doing that level of ongoing serious investment if there wasn't still a distinct market for it. You also need to think in terms of surface area of film. For example, every single sheet of 8x10 film exposed - a single click of the shutter - is equivalent in surface area to more than two 36 exposure rolls of 35mm film. Halve that for the more popular 4x5 format, which is selling rather briskly.

I certainly can't afford to be a "machine-gunner" in any kind of film format; but there are apparently a fair number of wealthy people who can afford to burn an awful lot of sheet film on a single trip or project. Otherwise, the inventories of such products wouldn't be selling out so rapidly like they are. Look at the bigger picture.

Sorry to be picky, but the area of 4x5 is 1/4 not half the area of 8x10 or half a roll of 35mm per 4x5 sheet based on 2 rolls for 8x10.

 

[brbo]

Sorry to be picky, but the area of 4x5 is 1/4 not half the area of 8x10 or half a roll of 35mm per 4x5 sheet based on 2 rolls for 8x10.

He didn't get the 8x10 / 135 ratio right either, so...

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Back in the day, the first thing I would check on a roll of film, was its expiry date. I guess these days, I'm not so picky. I use film with expiry dates going back several years, without issue...My film freezer is my friend! On another note, my local camera shop will give me a discount on out of date films...

 

[DREW WILEY]

Yeah, yeah, I should have proof-read to catch my typos. You get the point anyway. Size matters. Godzilla stomps Bambi every time. 35mm is 1-1/2 square inches; 4x5 is about 13 times bigger, and 8x10 is about 50 times bigger. The logistical distinction is that different sheet sizes can be cut from the same master roll upon demand; so as long as 4x5 remains popular, the other standard sheet sizes have a future too. Ilford works on an analogous premise with their b&w sheet films, offering special size cuts once a year.

Now back to expiration dates on Pringles.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Since all newly purchased film goes directly into my freezer, any change in Kodak's dating policy will not impact the way I store and use the film.

 

[MCB18]

For B&W I always treated expiration more as a suggestion. Color I’m more careful about, but I have found 1-2 years past date in the fridge is fine. I have a few rolls of frozen Fuji slide I’m kinda afraid to use…

 

[250swb]

On my Ilford factory tour the expiration date came up an discussion and while they acknowledged they needed to put a date on the box for common sense reasons (unknown storage conditions, etc.) the expiration date was as much about stock control for shops as anything else. And I remember a busy local camera shop often having a bargain box of 'expired' film because it was the film always at the bottom of the pile that they never thought to bring to the top, in the days when piles of film were always replenished and film was never on back-order.

I don't buy the idea that certain types of film are just sitting around on the shop shelf to justify manufacturers using longer expiry dates, there are too many people taking up film photography and there is pro rata a lot less film being made for it to 'sit around'. But if expiry dates are extending it may now be a truer reflection of the useful life of the film rather than the logistics of re-stocking a shelf every couple of weeks where shorter dates were more useful for the shop owner.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Most small retail dealers don't have anywhere near the purchasing clout to buy directly from manufacturers. Middlemen are involved, and there's no guarantee the stock is routinely rotated in those warehouses either. It all depends on the degree of supervision.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I buy my film only from stores that have the equipment to keep all film in temperature controlled storage. That helps reduce the risks, not eliminate all the risks though.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Our local photo store gave up on proper film temp control once burglars smashed into that, just like all the other lockers. But they only used it for slide or chrome film anyway, and told me, "It doesn't matter for negative film (even color). Pretty much what to expect from camera store people these days, or really anywhere. Times have changed. Don't expect reliable information. I still sometimes buy locally, but not as much as before; and when doing so, I do check the batch dates.

 

[mshchem]

The old Kodak displays in my local shops were replenished on top, dispensed on the bottom. All pro color films were kept in a cooler at about 40°F. They sold film so fast it never was old. This was before the B&H juggernaut hit.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Even B&H stopped refrigerating most film if not all.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Alan, are you referring to their retail store stock, or their warehouse? Ironically, when a particular film becomes scarce, B&H raises the price instead of lowering, further reducing the rate of turnover. I guess this is meant to be a means to preserve at least a token quantity of something somebody really wants and is willing to pay a premium price for. But I have gotten some OLD film from them in such circumstances in the past. The current Kodak sheet film selection is fairly small in comparison to former days, so the rate of turnover at BH appears to be pretty rapid, with distinct intermittent outages. And they've recently been pretty good at differentiating outdated stock from fresh stuff.