Kodak no longer following "2 year rule" for expiration dates?

[Alan Edward Klein]

Film doesn't have expiry dates.
It doesn't magically die on you.
It has "Develop Before" recommendations attached to it. Those are determined based on a bunch of statistical information about both the characteristics of the film and on typical and atypical storage and use conditions. The date is chosen, because relying on it minimizes the number of unhappy customers and retailers and labs. Traditionally Kodak and the other major film manufacturers chose dates very conservatively, because they had a lot of control over how film is handled before it gets into the end user's hands, and because the people who were likely to notice small changes - the very particular customers - tended to use a lot of film, and tended to have money at stake.\, and tended to use high quality labs.
A lot has changed since then. In particular, the amount of within specification lab development has plummeted., So Develop Before dates have got more conservative. But even given that, as an end user, you have no way of knowing how the film was handled before you got it. So other than using film as soon as is practical, and handling and storing it in temperature controlled, cool to cold conditions before you use it, is the only systemic approach that makes any sense.
If your suggested procedure makes you feel comfortable, go ahead. But it isn't likely to make any measurable or predictable difference, unless you have control over a lot of the other variables.

I also recall that the stock number of the film were important as pros would buy dozens or hundreds with the same stock number. That way the Kodak manufacturing of all was at the same time and therefore colors and expiries matched with all rolls or sheets, something important if you're doing a project with them. They could develop the first roll and then know what the rest need to get them right.

 

[mshchem]

I suspect it's also got something to do with customer expectations.

I recently purchased some Adox Lupex double weight contact paper, from Fotoimpex, I noticed that Adox marks the manufactured on date, which was a couple years ago. Perfectly fine for this stuff, stored correctly it lasts for many years.

I am usually buying film from B&H, Unique Photo etc. These folks move product fast.

I do tend to buy film in the cooler months, minimize hot trucks.

 

[MattKing]

I also recall that the stock number of the film were important as pros would buy dozens or hundreds with the same stock number. That way the Kodak manufacturing of all was at the same time and therefore colors and expiries matched with all rolls or sheets, something important if you're doing a project with them. They could develop the first roll and then know what the rest need to get them right.

If you go far enough back with slide film, you might remember opening the box and reading what the suggested filtration was for that batch.
It depends what you mean though by "Pros".
If you were doing high volume studio portraiture, or catalogue work, or magazine portraits, you and your lab benefitted from that level of control. If you worked a lot on location and with existing light, there wasn't nearly as much benefit.

 

[Don_ih]

See "Storage and Care of KODAK Photographic Materials".

 

[Ian Grant]

I was sent some fresh HP5 & FP4 a few weeks ago, the HP5 says 03/2027, and the FP4 01/2028. Expiry dates used to be longer, they were shortened to comply with ISO 9002 and are more about stock rotation than longevity.

Ian

 

[loccdor]

Very interesting information in the replies, thank you. It does make me wish for a date of manufacture rather than expiry.

 

[rcphoto]

Just got 2 rolls of Kodak UltraMax delivered today. Both dated 11/2026.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

See "Storage and Care of KODAK Photographic Materials".

Maybe I missed it but they didn't say much about freezing film under any situations to extend the expiry date or anything else for that matter. They spoke of keeping it in refrigerator at 50 degrees F for storage over 12 months. So is it safe to freeze it? Does it matter? Is refrigeration good enough?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Very interesting information in the replies, thank you. It does make me wish for a date of manufacture rather than expiry.

My local supermarket, Wegmans, sells coffee pods under its own label. They list both the roasted date and expiration date. I always check the roasted date, which I've seen could be six months different between packages. The expiration date is moot.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Maybe I missed it but they didn't say much about freezing film under any situations to extend the expiry date or anything else for that matter. They spoke of keeping it in refrigerator at 50 degrees F for storage over 12 months. So is it safe to freeze it? Does it matter? Is refrigeration good enough?

Ilford advises to avoid repeated thawing and freezing of films.

 

[Ian Grant]

Very interesting information in the replies, thank you. It does make me wish for a date of manufacture rather than expiry.

It's there for wholesalers and retailers, there would be far more confusion using the date of manufacture.

Ilford advises to avoid repeated thawing and freezing of films.

On a factory tour, some years ago, Ilford mentioned that many QC issues where when films & papers had been frozen, they don't recommend it. The major issue is materials need to thaw out slowly, so from frozen to refrigeration, before room temperature.

Ian

 

[DREW WILEY]

So why not just thaw it out slowly, just like Kodak has recommended seemingly forever? And I do freeze my films - Ilford, Kodak, and Fuji. I once had a box of 8x10 FP4 in the freezer for 20 years before I used it; it was fine.

The question with retail dealers is whether they even rotate the film at all. I doubt the typical shelf stocking monkeys who work in such places ever bother to read batch numbers.

 

[Don_ih]

they didn't say much about freezing film under any situations to extend the expiry date or anything else

Interestingly enough, in their version of the same sheet from 2005, they do.

"Warm up after refrigeration. To prevent condensation on the surfaces of film or paper taken from a refrigerator or freezer, allow the package to warm up to room temperature before breaking the seal or opening the container."

They provide a table for "warm-up times":

Why did they stop recommending freezing? Who knows. Maybe they thought people were using too much expired film.

It's noteworthy they also say, "While storage in a refrigerator or freezer can be highly beneficial, you should not rely on it to extend film life beyond the “Develop Before” date." That indicates they simply considered refrigeration or freezing to be the proper way to store the stuff.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

On a factory tour, some years ago, Ilford mentioned that many QC issues where when films & papers had been frozen, they don't recommend it. The major issue is materials need to thaw out slowly, so from frozen to refrigeration, before room temperature.
Ian

I agree with Ilford.
Better yet, buy at once whatever amount of film you need for a particular project and only that amount. All problem solved. No freezer, no expire date, fresh film, same batch, always consistent.

 

[MattKing]

Maybe I missed it but they didn't say much about freezing film under any situations to extend the expiry date or anything else for that matter. They spoke of keeping it in refrigerator at 50 degrees F for storage over 12 months. So is it safe to freeze it? Does it matter? Is refrigeration good enough?

This is what that 2005 sheet from Kodak shared by Don says:

"While storage in a refrigerator or freezer can be highly beneficial, you should not rely on it to extend film life beyond the “Develop Before” date. This is especially important with high-speed films, which can be fogged by cosmic and gamma radiation that is naturally present all around us. Neither cooling nor lead-foil bags will prevent this effect."

The Develop Before date is designed for different users and purposes than what you seem to be expecting from it.
Here is the current link to the Kodak guide for storage and care: https://kodakprofessional.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/CIS_E30.pdf
I expect the removal of advice respecting freezing and warmup generally has been removed from that document because it is directed to both casual and experienced users.
Interestingly, the individual datasheets for Kodak colour films differ with the film.
The Portra and Ektar datasheets include tables like this one from Portra 800, which includes information respecting freezing:

In comparison, the datasheets for Kodak Gold, Kodak Ektachrome and each of the Kodak black and white still films mirror the current Storage and Care CIS E30 document - no recommendation for freezing, although some of those datasheets include information about refrigeration.

 

[Ian Grant]

The question with retail dealers is whether they even rotate the film at all. I doubt the typical shelf stocking monkeys who work in such places ever bother to read batch numbers.

You are probably right, but the customers will notice. I see this every week in my local supermarket, maybe 3 different dates on meat, you buy the one with the longest date/shelf life.

Ian

 

[MarkS]

Strangely enough, all the manufacturers make film with this expectation; that you will buy it, load it into a camera, and make pictures with it. Today, even! And process it quickly so you can see your results.

You're not supposed to treat film, b/w or color, like a fine red wine that improves with a few years in the cellar.

That said, I was recently gifted some Kodak TXP film pack that expired 50 years ago. I tested it and found that fog had reduced effective speed from ASA 320 to about 32. I was quite surprised (and pleased). But I don't expect to see anything like that again.

 

[ChrisGalway]

I agree with Ilford.
Better yet, buy at once whatever amount of film you need for a particular project and only that amount. All problem solved. No freezer, no expire date, fresh film, same batch, always consistent.

Yes, in an ideal world that's best.

But have you tried to buy Provia 100f recently? At least in Europe, it's available sporadically and randomly, and it's impossible to predict when it will be available or when a pre-order will be delivered. I typically wait between 1 and 12 months for a pre-order to be fulfilled. And for retailers that send an email alert when some Provia is available, I've responded within minutes on the past two occasions and missed out.

So for Provia in Europe, the best policy is to buy it when you can ... and freeze it!

 

[DREW WILEY]

This is laughable. Buy a roll of 35mm film, shoot it, buy another roll, and then complain about the price. In my adult lifetime, I have taken more color shots with 4x5 and 8x10 color sheet film than with 35mm. You buy it when you can get it, and at the best price, and stockpile it in the freezer, or else you might not be able to get your preferred product at all when you need it, or might not even be able to afford it. I have 8 boxes of 8x10 Ektar in the freezer at the moment, which I paid around $450 for as part of a bulk factory cut. Today the cost would be over $2600. The big freezer cost me only $200, and I even once had 20X24 inch boxes of Cibachrome in there.

The policy with what were once classified as amateur films is different. Kodak made the assumption that that category of products would not necessarily be responsibly stored or shot on time. Nor did amateurs tend to have high expectations, given the lack of accurate metering, along with often questionable processing. As long as you could differentiate Aunt Sue's face from that of the barnyard cow, it was sufficient.

 

[MattKing]

The policy with what were once classified as amateur films is different. Kodak made the assumption that that category of products would not necessarily be responsibly stored or shot on time. Nor did amateurs tend to have high expectations, given the lack of accurate metering, along with often questionable processing. As long as you could differentiate Aunt Sue's face from that of the barnyard cow, it was sufficient.

And don't forget that the vast majority of all film used to be sold to and used by those amateurs.

 

[Taylor Nankervis]

As long as you could differentiate Aunt Sue's face from that of the barnyard cow, it was sufficient.

Sorry, I couldn't help but be bowled over in raucous stitches over that last line!!

 

[Taylor Nankervis]

Interestingly enough, in their version of the same sheet from 2005, they do.

"Warm up after refrigeration. To prevent condensation on the surfaces of film or paper taken from a refrigerator or freezer, allow the package to warm up to room temperature before breaking the seal or opening the container."

They provide a table for "warm-up times":

View attachment 382570

Why did they stop recommending freezing? Who knows. Maybe they thought people were using too much expired film.

It's noteworthy they also say, "While storage in a refrigerator or freezer can be highly beneficial, you should not rely on it to extend film life beyond the “Develop Before” date." That indicates they simply considered refrigeration or freezing to be the proper way to store the stuff.

Goodness me.
All of my film is deep frozen (minus 18°c); I take out what I am going to use and leave it somewhere I can find it (and safe from the inquisitive claws of the pussycats that cohabitate with me) and come back next morning. In other words, it's much more than an hour. Even my long-expired E6 film follows this. And ACROS 100. And whatever else is buried deep in the chillybin.

 

[foc]

I doubt the typical shelf stocking monkeys who work in such places ever bother to read batch numbers.

Drew, please don't use derogatory terms for retail workers.
I always enjoy your posts and your in-depth knowledge of photography. Don't lessen it by using such terms.

 

[koraks]

Drew, please don't use derogatory terms for retail workers.

I assume the 'retail monkey' in the case of Drew was used with a good dose of self-deprecation, given the fact that Drew has pointed out many times having spent his career working in an operational-level retail function himself.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

This is laughable. Buy a roll of 35mm film, shoot it, buy another roll, and then complain about the price. In my adult lifetime, I have taken more color shots with 4x5 and 8x10 color sheet film than with 35mm. You buy it when you can get it, and at the best price, and stockpile it in the freezer, or else you might not be able to get your preferred product at all when you need it, or might not even be able to afford it. I have 8 boxes of 8x10 Ektar in the freezer at the moment, which I paid around $450 for as part of a bulk factory cut. Today the cost would be over $2600. The big freezer cost me only $200, and I even once had 20X24 inch boxes of Cibachrome in there.

This is laughable. You buy film in the amount you need. Stop. If you can't find your preferred film, you buy another one that is similar. No big deal, no big difference. There are an abundant offer of films nowadays.
For color?
Shoot digital and life it's good. Stop. You have to understand that you, large format shooter, represents the 0,0000001% of all potential film consumer in the world. Statistically not significant.
I completely can afford any 35mm film if I need. Problem solved.
What I wanna say? Is that you can buy and freeze films if you want, but can't extend your behaviour to the general film consumer nor refrain the general film shooter to complain about prices hikes.