Kodak Ektar 120 Exp. 09/2026 Estar Base CURLS MISERABLY

[DREW WILEY]

I don't have curling issues with any Kodak 120 films unless I take a long trip in the desert or some other low humidity environment. I routinely reverse curl jus the the ends of all 35mm and 120 films when spooling them for development.

I use full glass sandwich carriers in all my enlargers, so that keeps things completely flat.
But if one if going to scan roll film frames or use glassless enlarger carriers, it is always a good idea to press the film flat under weight for awhile in advance.

The change to Estar base is a significant improvement. It's tougher, far more dimensionally stable (VERY important for those of us who need to maintain films in precise register, like for masking), and it doesn't gradually outgas acetic acid like acetate base.

If I had twisting issues like roundcloud has, the first thing I'd suspect would be too fast uneven drying. It also greatly helps to attach a weight like a clothespin to the distal end when drying.

 

[Kino]

I develop 10 to 15 rolls of film every day. This type of film base has been in use since the beginning of this year, and it’s the same every single day. The feel of this film base is quite poor and not user-friendly at all. It generates a lot of static electricity, attracts more dust than before, and is very unpleasant to work with. However, Kodak 5207 and similar films don’t use this kind of film base. Kodak is simply cutting costs without considering the user experience, as they now face no competition. Every change they make is driven by capital.

It could become the standard that only a few Kodak film stocks ( or none at all ) will be offered on Acetate in the future. Acetate base is now a "special order" in many instances on motion picture lab stocks.

Kodak seems to be slowly migrating everything to Estar.

 

[MattKing]

Eastman Kodak manufacture their own Estar base in Rochester New York.
The sources for acetate base are in Germany and Japan, and the cost of acetate base is very sensitive to world petroleum product price and other vagaries.
Eastman Kodak controls their own quality standards for their in-house Estar production.
Eastman Kodak is dependent on the quality control standards of the third party suppliers for their purchased acetate base.
Eastman Kodak has been using Estar for sheet film for a very, very long time. The transition to Estar for roll film is an evolutionary improvement, not merely a cost saver.
Estar requires some changes and adaptations, but they are accomplishable.
Sadly, I don't know that we will see Estar for Kodak black and white films anytime soon. The design and engineering costs necessary for the change are probably not justifiable given the relatively low sales volumes for those products - despite the number of fans here on Photrio.

 

[Kino]

Sadly, I don't know that we will see Estar for Kodak black and white films anytime soon. The design and engineering costs necessary for the change are probably not justifiable given the relatively low sales volumes for those products - despite the number of fans here on Photrio.

Well, Estar B&W in motion picture 35mm lab stocks is a given now; I don't know what the challenges are in still photo, but it's been available in MP B&W since the 1990's.

 

[MattKing]

The challenges are all similar - it takes X amount of fairly expensive work to re-design each emulsion to take into account the different properties of the substrates.
So they cost out that, vs the expected time necessary to recoup those costs from future sales, taking into account any savings that are enjoyed as a result of the change.
Then they make the decision based on the factors that determine where they devote their capital.
The lab stocks probably involved bigger film volumes, and their capital resources were much deeper in the 1990s. The needs for dimensional stability were probably also higher for those films.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I develop 10 to 15 rolls of film every day. This type of film base has been in use since the beginning of this year, and it’s the same every single day. The feel of this film base is quite poor and not user-friendly at all. It generates a lot of static electricity, attracts more dust than before, and is very unpleasant to work with. However, Kodak 5207 and similar films don’t use this kind of film base. Kodak is simply cutting costs without considering the user experience, as they now face no competition. Every change they make is driven by capital.

View attachment 413049

None of mine curl at all.

There is something awry in your process or environment.

 

[thinkbrown]

My Gold in 120 curls a bit compared to TMax but it's pretty minor. Certainly nothing compared to fomapan 100

 

[DREW WILEY]

It's easy to explain; but alas, it's even easier to unfairly blame.

 

[Don_ih]

... CURLS MISERABLY​

@mshchem -- are you sure it isn't curling with jubilation? Ecstasy? Optimism and love?

 

[MattKing]

Perhaps the OP needs to practice more before they can "draw to the button".

Now I should either take a drink of Canadian Club, or report myself to the moderation team.
Or both.

 

[Besk]

It could become the standard that only a few Kodak film stocks ( or none at all ) will be offered on Acetate in the future. Acetate base is now a "special order" in many instances on motion picture lab stocks.

Kodak seems to be slowly migrating everything to Estar.

Polyester films are the only ones I use anymore in B&W. If Kodak used a Estar base for the T-max films I would go to them exclusively. Right now I use Superpan for all of my rollfilm needs.

 

[mshchem]

Perhaps the OP needs to practice more before they can "draw to the button".

Now I should either take a drink of Canadian Club, or report myself to the moderation team.
Or both.

I think you fell through the ice. Mild Canadian (Vancouver) winters.

I don't know if EK is a major supplier of polyester films? This is a huge business.

PET is used in everything these days and it's recyclable. All those sprocket holes need to go somewhere.

Acetate is inferior from a technical view, but Acetate "feels" more like film.

We used to buy oriented polystyrene film that was used for a gloss "cap" on durable but dull high impact PS for refrigerator door interiors. The market got so small it was impossible to find product that met quality standards for gels and specks.

My guess is it's a matter of EK keeping quality and filling the extruder time. Who knows?

 

[MattKing]

I don't know if EK is a major supplier of polyester films?

It is a growing part of their business, and combines well with their coating expertise when it comes to some non-photographic uses of them.
I expect that the non-photographic polyester film business competes with the photographic business for EK's tightly controlled applications of capital.

 

[MattKing]

I think you fell through the ice. Mild Canadian (Vancouver) winters.

Around here, it all depends on indoor ice!
The sound of "Hurry! Hard!" is probably more impressive indoors anyways.

 

[mshchem]

Around here, it all depends on indoor ice!
The sound of "Hurry! Hard!" is probably more impressive indoors anyways.

Hurry Hard Oh My!

 

[Don_ih]

The sound of "Hurry! Hard!"

That may have swept right over everyone's head.

 

[gbroadbridge]

That may have swept right over everyone's head.

It did until you mentioned it <head bangs kb>

 

[DREW WILEY]

The industrial demand for PET sheeting from Kodak probably surpasses their own internal demand as a film base material. That's actually a good thing in terms of sustaining them as a corporation.

 

[MattKing]

That may have swept right over everyone's head.

It was nicely pebbled, wouldn't you say?
For those for whom this is making absolutely no sense, this movie may give you a clue: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0263734/

 

[David R Williams]

Around here, it all depends on indoor ice!
The sound of "Hurry! Hard!" is probably more impressive indoors anyways.

AGREED!

 

[mshchem]

AGREED!

Freakin' Alberta Clipper coming up next few days. I'm going to pack up my Subaru and request asylum, Prince Edward Island sounds like the perfect fit. They still grow potatoes right? Go searching for Anne!

 

[mshchem]

We should be cheering that we get state of the art archival substrate for our images. Curling isn't terrible. Vertical integration is a good thing, make what you can.

 

[Samu]

I have noticed a tendency of curling in Kodak´s 135 format films on Estar base, This can be very annoying if uoi are in a hurry, and want to print immediately when the films are dry. The problem resolves partially when storing the film for a few days in a file. We don´t have any desert climate here in Lithuania- this is one of the European countries with most of rain in a year.

 

[mshchem]

I have noticed a tendency of curling in Kodak´s 135 format films on Estar base, This can be very annoying if uoi are in a hurry, and want to print immediately when the films are dry. The problem resolves partially when storing the film for a few days in a file. We don´t have any desert climate here in Lithuania- this is one of the European countries with most of rain in a year.

Kodak has the knowledge of exactly what is required to produce film that doesn't curl. It was one of the features that set Kodak apart from it's competitors early on. Now, with color film, curl isn't important, especially for the folks who are only interested in digital files.