Kodak-branded chemicals - official news (they are returning)

[Roger Cole]

Isn't HC-110 the only commercially available standard developer which is a liquid? Everything else I've looked at has been specialized: DDX (pushing), Ilfosol, Rodinal, SPUR, FX-39 (sharpness). The one I haven't looked at was Clayton F76, but an old thread I found here said it's close/identical to DDX.

Essentially if one needs an easily avilable "liquid D76" there's not much else to recommend.

DD-X is not specialized for pushing, just because it can be used for that. It's Ilford's version of T-Max developer, basically. I used T-Max RS though I used it one shot for years, until the canceled it. I'd call Rodinal a general purpose developer - it sure isn't ideal for pushing nor the finest grain. There are any number of liquid developers I'd call general purpose.

 

[Roger Cole]

All the labs I know use syrup HC-110 for low volume B/W film development with manual or semiautomatic (Jobo) processing. Excellent keeping properties, versatility (works with any film), cost and short development times (B dilution).

All of which is fine but not all that special, at least for the home darkroom worker. All B&W developers - well many - are versatile. D76 certainly is. Price is pretty irrelevant at home user quantities at least for things like D-76, D-23, etc. Short development time I actually consider a drawback in the home darkroom. Being, say, 15 seconds off makes a bigger different percentage wise in a four minute development time than in a 10 minute one.

Excellent keeping I get - I mentioned that. But as far as I can see that's the ONLY particular advantage for the hobbyist. I'm not knocking it, I just don't see as anything all that special either.

 

[Steven Lee]

@Roger Cole Let's agree to disagree regarding DD-X. Its grain isn't great to begin with and its dull tonality at recommended development times forces you to increase gamma after scanning [1], which in turn makes the grain look even worse. Delta 400 in DD-X looks rougher than HP5 in ID-11. But when you're pushing, then all of this makes sense: its pushed look is less contrasty than normal developers and its grain doesn't get much worse when pushing.

[1] I do not wet print and perhaps this makes a difference, although I don't see how.

 

[LomoSnap]

I agree, which is why I'm curious about the exact nature of the agreement between Kodak and PSI. In truth, we may be making this more complicated than it needs to be. What Alan Fischer said was that PSI had become the "worldwide licensee for Kodak Professional chemistry." To be a "licensee" implies that you've agreed to manufacture a specific product over which the licensor holds intellectual property rights. In my mind, that's to be distinguished from a simple "branding agreement," in which you manufacture a close-ish approximation of a product and stick another company's logo on the package.

So, for example, "Kodak" presumably still owns (or maybe not?) the patent on the yellow, high-viscosity HC-110 that many long for. If Kodak was going to enter into a licensing agreement with PSI to make HC-110, it wouldn't make any sense for PSI to produce anything other than that exact same stuff, since it's quite clear that several companies have already managed to make their own clones of HC-110 (albeit low-viscosity ones) without the need for such an agreement.

This inexorably leads me to another question: Which Kodak entity actually owns/owned the patents on Kodak photochemistry? Are such patents still in force, or have they expired? I believe it was Kodak Alaris that sold the photochemicals division to Sino Promise. Does that necessarily mean that Kodak Alaris owned the patents? And for that matter, was Sino Promise manufacturing Kodak photochemicals in accordance with the original patented Kodak formulations, or were they simply making clones and sticking the Kodak logo on the outside? I'm betting @MattKing and others have some insight on this.

When Kodak Alaris sold its photochemical division to sinopromise, Kodak's factory in China was also sold to sinopromise. Therefore, the predecessor of sinopromise's factory was the Kodak Chemicals China Factory, and the personnel, assets and equipment were all retained by sinopromise.

 

[halfaman]

All of which is fine but not all that special, at least for the home darkroom worker. All B&W developers - well many - are versatile. D76 certainly is. Price is pretty irrelevant at home user quantities at least for things like D-76, D-23, etc. Short development time I actually consider a drawback in the home darkroom. Being, say, 15 seconds off makes a bigger different percentage wise in a four minute development time than in a 10 minute one.

Excellent keeping I get - I mentioned that. But as far as I can see that's the ONLY particular advantage for the hobbyist. I'm not knocking it, I just don't see as anything all that special either.

For amaterurs like us, the right developer (and film, and paper, and camera, and so on...) is the one that delivers what we are looking for. From that point of view, HC-110 can be as good as any other depending on the particular expectations. If you asked me now, my anwer would be HP5+ developed with Dektol...

 

[cmacd123]

I received a result for one of my standing searches today in the form of a press release.

the release contained little new information, BUT it did contain a URL for the NEW version of the Kodak Chemical Line...

KODAK PHOTO SYSTEMS

KODAK PHOTO SYSTEMS Photographic Chemistry and Imaging Solutions

kodak.photosys.com

 

[cmacd123]

I did notice that at least one product page mentions a data sheet, where the link goes to Kodak Alaris. the "about US" does confirm that they are proud of their former life as "Unicolor" (as frankly they should be.) And at the same time indicate they are the source of many of the CineStill chemistry kits.

 

[mshchem]

I did notice that at least one product page mentions a data sheet, where the link goes to Kodak Alaris. the "about US" does confirm that they are proud of their former life as "Unicolor" (as frankly they should be.) And at the same time indicate they are the source of many of the CineStill chemistry kits.

They made a lot of the Jobo USA powder kits when Jobo USA was located in Ann Arbor Michigan, seems like eons ago, but seems like less than 20?

 

[mshchem]

Anyone seen anything more about this development?

 

[cmacd123]

Anyone seen anything more about this development?

I belive the press relase talked bout "1st Quarter" jan, feb and March.

However they did say that they were working with "Cine-Still" and if you look at th eCine-Still site they do metion that they will be selling Kodak Chemicals, and also Jobo and Ferrania Products. I guess for the USA market The Cinestill site has the list of B&W chemicals that looks EXACTLY like the one on the Photosys site.

 

[TomR55]

Isn't HC-110 the only commercially available standard developer which is a liquid? Everything else I've looked at has been specialized: DDX (pushing), Ilfosol, Rodinal, SPUR, FX-39 (sharpness). The one I haven't looked at was Clayton F76, but an old thread I found here said it's close/identical to DDX.

Essentially if one needs an easily avilable "liquid D76" there's not much else to recommend.

I've never used Ilford DDX, but I use Claytons F76+ weekly. One thing for certain, DDX is much more expensive than Clayton's F76+. I also think that Clayton's F76+ delivers negatives that have a tonality very similar to D76, but is provided in an easily diluted liquid. For example: I prefer Clayton's F76+ to TMAX for TMAX 100 and TMAX 400 films because I think that the resulting negatives have a tonality that is much closer to what I obtain with D76. The only "drawback" to Clayton's F76+ might be a shorter shelf life than either TMAX or DDX developers (but I've done no real comparisons here as I go through developer at a reasonable clip).

 

[mshchem]

I've never used Ilford DDX, but I use Claytons F76+ weekly. One thing for certain, DDX is much more expensive than Clayton's F76+. I also think that Clayton's F76+ delivers negatives that have a tonality very similar to D76, but is provided in an easily diluted liquid. For example: I prefer Clayton's F76+ to TMAX for TMAX 100 and TMAX 400 films because I think that the resulting negatives have a tonality that is much closer to what I obtain with D76. The only "drawback" to Clayton's F76+ might be a shorter shelf life than either TMAX or DDX developers (but I've done no real comparisons here as I go through developer at a reasonable clip).

Where do you get your Claytons F76+ from? I usually buy liquid fixer from Freestyle so I suppose that would be an option. I use XTOL almost exclusively for several years. I used to be able to get everything locally but that's all changed in the last few years.

 

[TomR55]

Where do you get your Claytons F76+ from? I usually buy liquid fixer from Freestyle so I suppose that would be an option. I use XTOL almost exclusively for several years. I used to be able to get everything locally but that's all changed in the last few years.

I also purchase from Freestyle. In addition to offering this developer in 32 oz. and 1 gallon quantities, Freestyle's Arista film developers are Clayton's (check their data sheets), and these are available in 12 oz. bottles, if working with smaller quantities of developer suits your processing needs.

 

[mshchem]

I also purchase from Freestyle. In addition to offering this developer in 32 oz. and 1 gallon quantities, Freestyle's Arista film developers are Clayton's (check their data sheets), and these are available in 12 oz. bottles, if working with smaller quantities of developer suits your processing needs.

I think Freestyle's manufacturing division may be making the Clayton products?? Either way looks like a good product.

 

[TomR55]

I think Freestyle's manufacturing division may be making the Clayton products?? Either way looks like a good product.

I couldn't say; perhaps some more knowledgable members of this forum could provide some clarification on this point. I think that Lionel Huff (who is the president or a highly-placed individual with Clayton Chemical) has responded to some threads on photo.com in the past ... but I could be mistaken. In either event, I hope that they have a good place in the marketplace because I do like this and their other processing products.

 

[cmacd123]

I think Freestyle's manufacturing division may be making the Clayton products?? Either way looks like a good product.

Other than converting sizes occasionally, I do not believe that Freestyle has ANY manufacturing Capability. back in the 60s they did slit and perforate some areo film, and way back they sold Movie ends, spooled to 100ft loads. (they started in 1946 selling Military surplus film) if you download the MSDS for most of the Freestyle chemicals - the fine print indicates that the source is Clayton, or PSI.

 

[mshchem]

Other than converting sizes occasionally, I do not believe that Freestyle has ANY manufacturing Capability. back in the 60s they did slit and perforate some areo film, and way back they sold Movie ends, spooled to 100ft loads. (they started in 1946 selling Military surplus film) if you download the MSDS for most of the Freestyle chemicals - the fine print indicates that the source is Clayton, or PSI.

Yeah, I suspect you're correct. I'm starting to wonder if PSI isn't behind a lot of the chemistry. Who knows for sure. I'm glad that someone is going to be making the Kodak products. The Covid thing took down Sino Promise, timing couldn't have been worse.

 

[chuckroast]

I think the virtue of HC-110 was that it was a very good compromise on speed, Grain, Acuity and contrast, while being a product that you could use even if your development activities were more in Bursts than every day. For the labs and (newspapers back in the day) it could be a substitute for several "Classic" formulas, and was easy to set up a replenished line when the HC-110 replenisher was still available.

I was all the things you say. But, I'd argue that Pyrocat-HD fundamentally replaces it in all those aspect, except for replenishment because it's simply not needed with Pcat being so very economical to use as a one shot developer.

 

[1kgcoffee]

Welcome news. It seems no one is producing RA-4 developer these days

 

[koraks]

Welcome news. It seems no one is producing RA-4 developer these days

Except of course Fuji + Fuji Hunt with a pretty big output, probably Champion (since it's still available in quantity), there must be a sizeable Chinese manufacturer but they likely supply mostly their domestic market, and then there's of course the smaller ones focusing on home users such as Adox, Bellini etc.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Bellini

I'm not entirely sure how big the Bellini range is as their website is not particularly comprehensive. For example, it doesn't mention the 5 litre E6 kit they produce or list all the E6 solutions separately in larger quantities, which I'm pretty sure they supply. Whereas Bellini do list a full range of C-41 separates.

E6 Color Reversal Processing - Bellini Foto

Professional products for the E6 Color Reversal Processing

www.bellinifoto.it

Bellini E6 Kit, Six Bath, 5 litre

This top-quality, excellent-value kit is unique. Moving up from their small volume one-litre E6 Kit, this professional kit, using a 'traditional' six-bath process, will process up to 50 films.It is designed to make one litre of each solution: First Developer, Reversal bath, Colour Developer...

www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk

 

[halfaman]

Except of course Fuji + Fuji Hunt with a pretty big output, probably Champion (since it's still available in quantity), there must be a sizeable Chinese manufacturer but they likely supply mostly their domestic market, and then there's of course the smaller ones focusing on home users such as Adox, Bellini etc.

There is also an italian brand called Axel Color that mainly supplies C41 and RA4 chemicals in minilab quantities. Never buy anything, just remarking their existance.

Axelcolor srls

Shop powered by PrestaShop

www.axelcolor.com

Bellini is also selling to minilabs but they keep it at B2B level. You need to do an enquiry and be a business to have a quotation.

 

[koraks]

I'm not entirely sure how big the Bellini range

Me neither, but they do sell RA4 chemistry.
For amateurs: https://www.bellinifoto.it/en/prodotto/kit-amateur-ra4/
Pro lab, 10-200liter packaging: https://www.bellinifoto.it/en/prodotto/paper-digital-developer-ra4/

 

[1kgcoffee]

Except of course Fuji + Fuji Hunt with a pretty big output, probably Champion (since it's still available in quantity), there must be a sizeable Chinese manufacturer but they likely supply mostly their domestic market, and then there's of course the smaller ones focusing on home users such as Adox, Bellini etc.

Tried ordering recently. Champion discontinued according to Pakor, all the other main retailers listing Fuji RA developers as discontinued or out of stock. Only thing I can find fresh is full 5L kits or a fuji developer mini lab cartridge from one retailer and some 'silverpixel' from freestylephoto which does not ship to Canada. Blix is readily available.

Rather use premixed but may just end my making own brew, I have most of the chemicals

 

[mshchem]

Tried ordering recently. Champion discontinued according to Pakor, all the other main retailers listing Fuji RA developers as discontinued or out of stock. Only thing I can find fresh is full 5L kits or a fuji developer mini lab cartridge from one retailer and some 'silverpixel' from freestylephoto which does not ship to Canada. Blix is readily available.

Rather use premixed but may just end my making own brew, I have most of the chemicals

This is what I wondered. Champion is listed as discontinued on Unique Photo, it was still showing at Pakor, I didn't talk to them. Fuji is making the stuff everyday of the week to supply commercial labs.