Kodak Axes Digicams, but keeps film

[CGW]

O.k., you call facts you don't like informercial hype....
LSI sold about 7 million films last year.

Regards,
Henning

Not sure you can sort personal opinion from personal facts, Henning. Your "facts" seem a bit elusive. Sources? Recall this was problematic last time you pitched this "Lomography Saves the World" story.

 

[Henning Serger]

Last I looked CIPA stopped listing film camera sales 4 years ago when demand fell off a cliff and all major manufacturers stopped P&S camera manufacture Maybe I am wrong, but I looked and cannot find them.

They stopped publishing in 2008. In 2007 700,000 film cameras were sold. The 91 millions were already reached in this time until 2008 (therefore the number is even a bit higher, I took the conservative approach).
In the period the numbers has been published I had constantly protocolled them for my archive.
Maybe you can still find the numbers in the archives of photoscala.

They also count disposable cameras.

SUCs were not included in the numbers I have posted.
In 2010 in the USA about 36 million SUCs were sold due to the PMA.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[removed account4]

i couldn't care less if aristophane or cgw are 100% correct
maybe they are? i don't know and it really doesn't matter much to me.

kodak becomes creo ... big deal
they were always leaning towards that anyways ...

kodak has slowly been heading down this trail for 25 years.
they have shed off things in their product portfolio since the beginning
camera making, film making, paper making chemistry making, processing ...
the future of analog photography might not be kodak, it isnt' like they are trying to make it their future anyways ...

 

[Henning Serger]

Sources?

GfK, ACNielsen, two suppliers of LSI, LSI (the data is from a cancelled market research project).

Regards,
Henning

 

[CGW]

GfK, ACNielsen, two suppliers of LSI, LSI (the data is from a cancelled market research project).

Regards,
Henning

References or URLs, Henning? Where can we read these?

 

[michaelbsc]

Me! Me! Me! But only when I'm at work and it's a Keystone EPI-2 or MRP pneumatic...

You know, the site I'm working at now doesn't have a single pneumatic anything. The valve positioners are electronic. Nor for that matter is anything 4-20ma. The valves are Modbus485, as are most of the instruments. And what isn't 485 is Modbus/TCP.

The kids I'm working with wouldn't know what 3-15 psi meant if was written on the side of the box. But at least they've seen 4-20ma before.

EDIT: So after a minute of thought here is an absolutely totally unrelated subtopic about an industry where the analog has vanished and the whole site is digitally controlled. That really wasn't my point when I answered Thomas. Just an observation a few seconds after I posted it

MB

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

You know, the site I'm working at now doesn't have a single pneumatic anything. The valve positioners are electronic. Nor for that matter is anything 4-20ma. The valves are Modbus485, as are most of the instruments. And what isn't 485 is Modbus/TCP.

The kids I'm working with wouldn't know what 3-15 psi meant if was written on the side of the box. But at least they've seen 4-20ma before.

EDIT: So after a minute of thought here is an absolutely totally unrelated subtopic about an industry where the analog has vanished and the whole site is digitally controlled. That really wasn't my point when I answered Thomas. Just an observation a few seconds after I posted it

MB

You must be in industrial control, petroleum or some such. I worked on a food plant last week, new construction, and all was 4-20mA via E/P positioners on valves and electric on dampers.
Much of the controls I work with is HVAC, big commercial or light industrial. Some BACNet, but Modbus growing for sure. Wireless is getting bigger too.

Interesting industry trends, for sure.

 

[Henning Serger]

Where can we read these?

It hasn't been published, because the project was cancelled.

You may have a look here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/camera-club-blog/2011/dec/29/camera-club-january-achievement
The second paragraph after the last picture. e.g.

Or here:
http://www.lomography.com/about/jobs

Regards,
Henning

 

[CGW]

It hasn't been published, because the project was cancelled.

You may have a look here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/camera-club-blog/2011/dec/29/camera-club-january-achievement
The second paragraph after the last picture. e.g.

Or here:
http://www.lomography.com/about/jobs

Regards,
Henning

Nice try, Henning. LSI's not exactly an engine of economic growth.

 

[MDR]

LSI is a disgusting company, with low morals in the pr department but I am glad they exist and sell analogue cameras and film to the uneducated. 7 Million Films sold is better than nothing and how often have Leica, Canon, Nikon promoted film use in the last 5 years, how about never. LSI won't save film, but they can help or maybe they are willing to finance Wetplate workshops in order to sell Wetplate cameras in the Filmless future.

Dominik

 

[michaelbsc]

You must be in industrial control, petroleum or some such. I worked on a food plant last week, new construction, and all was 4-20mA via E/P positioners on valves and electric on dampers.
Much of the controls I work with is HVAC, big commercial or light industrial. Some BACNet, but Modbus growing for sure. Wireless is getting bigger too.

Interesting industry trends, for sure.

I don't do much HVAC these days. In fact I haven't thought about BACnet or LONworks in I can't remember how long.

Recently it's all been petroleum, as you guessed. Specifically management of fuel transfer from storage to delivery vehicles and tracking inventory.

The money is good, but man do I miss manufacturing. And in the US it's tough in manufacturing now.

 

[Toffle]

...and the Ignore User function works. Feel free to return the favour.

In other news, it's a beautiful Canadian winter day to shoot a little film and celebrate the fact that we have the feedom to put our petty differences behind us.

 

[Aristophanes]

It hasn't been published, because the project was cancelled.

You may have a look here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/camera-club-blog/2011/dec/29/camera-club-january-achievement
The second paragraph after the last picture. e.g.

Or here:
http://www.lomography.com/about/jobs

Regards,
Henning

I am not seeing 91 million. I just looked through my Bloomberg and I count less than that from the numbers posted

Until the 6 megapixel camera came out film sales still trumped digital, and that was 2005. Then you see an almost total obliteration of film camera sales.

Last year digital camera sales were about 150 million, not including cameraphones. That's about another 15 million and rising fast. Some of that is cannibalization of P&S market share, and Kodak does not make smartphones.

To put that in perspective, more digital cameras will be sold in the next 5 years than all film cameras manufactured from their invention to the present.

The US 2011 PMA Report says pretty much nothing about film or film camera sales save for disposables. They are not longer statistically relevant. CIPA says the same.

I am not saying that Lomo is not an interesting marketing phenom and has clever, analog ideas. Quite the opposite. I just doubt their 500k units (largely cheap plastic, but functional if treated as such) sold per year and "millions" of film rolls sold makes little difference when Kodak can pump out millions of rolls in a week, and has to amortize its costs over a year. What will the employees do for the other 51 weeks? According to PE Kodak has looming over-production issues.

If motion picture film makes up 80% of FPEG's net sales, and Kodak is still #1 by a margin (it is according to Kodak's financials) then entire roll and cartridge film market is worth maybe $600 million per year between all suppliers, with demand still in steep decline (Kodak says so). Remember: at one point Kodak alone was making something like $12 billion on film sales in 1988! The whole market was something like $22 billion at its peak (non-weighted $'s no less).

So what Lomo is doing is OK, but it's a statistical blip. It's maybe 5% of total film sales currently, and 0.00x% of historic volumes. Is that enough to keep Kodak and Fuji massive coating systems going? That's up to Kodak's creditors now.

 

[removed account4]

I am not seeing 91 million. I just looked through my Bloomberg and I count less than that from the numbers posted

Until the 6 megapixel camera came out film sales still trumped digital, and that was 2005. Then you see an almost total obliteration of film camera sales.

Last year digital camera sales were about 150 million, not including cameraphones. That's about another 15 million and rising fast. Some of that is cannibalization of P&S market share, and Kodak does not make smartphones.

To put that in perspective, more digital cameras will be sold in the next 5 years than all film cameras manufactured from their invention to the present.

The US 2011 PMA Report says pretty much nothing about film or film camera sales save for disposables. They are not longer statistically relevant. CIPA says the same.

I am not saying that Lomo is not an interesting marketing phenom and has clever, analog ideas. Quite the opposite. I just doubt their 500k units (largely cheap plastic, but functional if treated as such) sold per year and "millions" of film rolls sold makes little difference when Kodak can pump out millions of rolls in a week, and has to amortize its costs over a year. What will the employees do for the other 51 weeks? According to PE Kodak has looming over-production issues.

If motion picture film makes up 80% of FPEG's net sales, and Kodak is still #1 by a margin (it is according to Kodak's financials) then entire roll and cartridge film market is worth maybe $600 million per year between all suppliers, with demand still in steep decline (Kodak says so). Remember: at one point Kodak alone was making something like $12 billion on film sales in 1988! The whole market was something like $22 billion at its peak (non-weighted $'s no less).

So what Lomo is doing is OK, but it's a statistical blip. It's maybe 5% of total film sales currently, and 0.00x% of historic volumes. Is that enough to keep Kodak and Fuji massive coating systems going? That's up to Kodak's creditors now.

sorry to ask this, but what is the point ?
is it to say that lomo + holga cameras aren't going to save analog ?

isn't it kind of obvious they won't ..


is your point to say analog photography is dying ?
is it to say that kodak is down for the count ?
is it to say we should all switch to digital or hybrid or ?

i think most people reading this thread
realize that the whole industry is scaling down

sorry i fail to understand what your point is ...

 

[Opiatephoto]

Imagine you are on vacation in a nice place with many visually engaging attributes that are worthy of pointing a camera at. You are strolling downtown with your significant other and she wants to go shop for a few hours. You decide that shopping is not for you, set a meeting time and place and look for a coffee shop to have a seat and read the paper. You contact who seems to be a local and ask where the best place is for that, not Starbucks perhaps. The enthusiastic informant quips, "Oh, just go to the DarkRoom, two blocks that way on your left"....

You show up and there it is, a hip and cool coffee shop with photo-esque motif, safelights for light fixtures, all kinds of cool photo nostaligia as decor, bean-bag chairs, photo-centric coffee table books abound...you get the idea. And next to the counter where the barista is chugging away at making you a latte with "2-Stops" of espresso, is another counter....cameras for rental and purchase. In the case are not dusty old Practicas and 120 folders, but shiny, colorful and whimsical renovations of what were garage sale paperweights. There is a stable of Blads, some with really funny stickers covering them, others with bright red and blue leatherette, all in perfect working condition having been gone over by David Odess. Then there are Leicas, Nikons, Canons and several others.....all mechanically sound and freshly adapted to be the new age of film photography, the fun part. Some of these beautifully restored cameras ar for sale too, not eBay level dirt cheap, but surely affordabe by most. You notice lots of black and white and color film behind the counter in a cool fridge that has been painted and stenciled in well known quotes by famous photographers...you are fully engaged now....

You have two hours to kill, you ask the person at the counter "So I can rent one of these, but where can I get the film developed?" The Barista replies, "The color we send out, but the black and white can be done right here in our darkroom, you can even do it your self and print it too." The gentleman rents a Leica, had always wanted to try one.

The next day, he asks his wife if he can have two hours to go print his film...he is hooked and buys the camera of his dreams.

This business is my five year plan, to not only bring back film based workshops to one of the most art and talent filled places on Earth, but to provide a place where you can sip a cup of "Grade-3" while you look at a well worn copy of "Bare Witness" by Gordon Parks or rent a leopard skinned Nikon F2 and develop the film your self. Many of those used cameras out there are like old Beach Cruisers, they can be not only restored, but made cool, hip and fun.

This is what film photography needs in order to survive, to shake the cobwebs off of it and freshen it up, to be cool again and just plain fun.

This too, can be a reality...

You know, let me know when the opening is and this Denver flatlander will be there with bells on.

 

[Photo Engineer]

sorry to ask this, but what is the point ?
is it to say that lomo + holga cameras aren't going to save analog ?

isn't it kind of obvious they won't ..


is your point to say analog photography is dying ?
is it to say that kodak is down for the count ?
is it to say we should all switch to digital or hybrid or ?

i think most people reading this thread
realize that the whole industry is scaling down

sorry i fail to understand what your point is ...

Sorry for saying this John, but his point is that he wants to be right!

In this context though, no one is right. Truth is somewhere in the middle. For example P&S cameras or Lomos or what have you may be selling hugely (and Kodak says that P&S sales are either up or holding steady, depending on reports). The thing is that even at the sales we see here and some elsewhere, it is not enough to sustain the market. So the truth is somewhere in between, a mixed bag if you will. But, some insist on having "the truth" to dispense to us right or wrong.

Film camera sales may be up, but film sales are down. People buy Lomos but may not keep using them. People buy P&S cameras and often have problems getting the film processed. Or they may find processing and printing too expensive. One of our children had 10+ rolls of film in her desk drawer because it was too difficult and time consuming to drive to one of the rare camera stores here after the supermarket stopped processing film. I took them in for her.

PE

 

[Roger Cole]

sorry to ask this, but what is the point ?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheEeyore

 

[wblynch]

I think that APUG is a beautiful source of information and communication about the enjoyment, practice, preservation and usage of traditional photographic tools and products.

Meaning FILM.

Certainly I can only speak for myself therefore it is my humble opinion that people coming here and using every chance they have to denigrate those principles ought to just pack up and get the hell out.

Thank you.

 

[Wayne]

The point appears to be becoming APUG #1 Most Ignored User.


Maybe we should have a new site function. If someone earns the honor of getting on X # of Ignore Lists, they also earn an escort to the exit.

 

[keithwms]

I won't ignore him 'til he comes right out and says what he really wants to say :munch:

 

[Photo Engineer]

I do not have an ignore list. I think it important to say this. There is not a person posting here that I feel I cannot lean something from! Everyone here has something to say that is worth hearing, even if you disagree with what they are saying or how they are saying it.

PE

 

[ambaker]

You know, the site I'm working at now doesn't have a single pneumatic anything. The valve positioners are electronic. Nor for that matter is anything 4-20ma. The valves are Modbus485, as are most of the instruments. And what isn't 485 is Modbus/TCP.

The kids I'm working with wouldn't know what 3-15 psi meant if was written on the side of the box. But at least they've seen 4-20ma before.

EDIT: So after a minute of thought here is an absolutely totally unrelated subtopic about an industry where the analog has vanished and the whole site is digitally controlled. That really wasn't my point when I answered Thomas. Just an observation a few seconds after I posted it

MB

In my end of the business, there is still plenty of analog to go around. Yes plenty of digital, mod bus, profi bus. However modulated valves are still most often 3-15 psig. Power plants have the world's worst electricity. The generators and their high voltages, high voltage switching and transformers, produce fierce amounts of electronic noise. Our phone lines have to go through opto-isolators to keep the phone company from having to deal with the problems. Things will be/are changing. But analog has a number of good years left in it.

I accept that film will never even approach what we remember. But I doubt it will disappear. 30 years ago, we had horses out in California. We had friends who would come over to ride, and they would try to imagine what it must have been like, before the automobile. Little did they know, that at that time there were more horses in California than there had ever been during the "old west". Horses will not make a comeback as the basis of transportation. Film will not make a comeback as the basis for imaging. But, like horses, I think it does have a future as a recreational and artistic medium.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=36.790787,-90.481153

 

[Stephen Prunier]

I think that APUG is a beautiful source of information and communication about the enjoyment, practice, preservation and usage of traditional photographic tools and products.

Meaning FILM.

Certainly I can only speak for myself therefore it is my humble opinion that people coming here and using every chance they have to denigrate those principles ought to just pack up and get the hell out.

Thank you.

Bing, Bing, Bing, we have a winner!!!

 

[Aristophanes]

Sorry for saying this John, but his point is that he wants to be right!

In this context though, no one is right. Truth is somewhere in the middle. For example P&S cameras or Lomos or what have you may be selling hugely (and Kodak says that P&S sales are either up or holding steady, depending on reports).

What P&S?

Only Fuji makes a P&S in very limited runs (in the hundreds with the Natura) and some Olympic Epics which are NOS and only available in Japan.

None of the majors makes a P&S anymore. B&H has none.

Did you mean disposables?

I live in a region of 2 million people and there are only 2 places to have those developed which for most means multiple hours of driving.

Kodak's own words for the legal, financial record say "decline". Show me one authored by Kodak that says otherwise.

keithwms
I won't ignore him 'til he comes right out and says what he really wants to say

For Kodak film to survive, it has to get out of Kodak the public company.

ambaker
Film will not make a comeback as the basis for imaging. But, like horses, I think it does have a future as a recreational and artistic medium.

I agree with that. To get there, someone has to turn around the sale declines, at least for roll and cartridge film.

It's not going to be Kodak.

 

[Rudeofus]

I agree with that. To get there, someone has to turn around the sale declines, at least for roll and cartridge film.

I have argued repeatedly that an overall decline in sales of the FPEG group does not automatically translate in a decline in still photography film, and several folks have posted numbers that still film sales were up last year. In other words, Kodak film is already where you want them.