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Right, but to a degree, we have a hand in what the market for film is to become. If we the film user were in full control of that, what would be want it to be given the knowns of the market dynamics and the economies of scale that drive it?

We want our film companies to pull a profit, we want a healthy and realistic product line, but I feel like there are missing pieces of the puzzle, or worse, the pieces are right there in front of us and both the film user and the film companies are missing them..

There are no missing puzzle pieces. There is only the standard demand and supply. Nothing else exists. Film was never supported by the "fine art" market. It was supported by commercial and casual photography. Seriously wide-spread usage started with the Kodak camera and the "you press the button, we do the rest," advertising campaign. Mr. Eastman wanted photography to be as convenient as using a pencil, and he achieved it.

But where does a film company go when "you press the button," and there's no rest to be done? The services aren't needed because the demand has dried up, so the supply dries up. How many blacksmiths are needed these days? Not many, so there's not many to be found (Yellowpages.com lists three in my state). How many tiny service stations still exist? I drove past a remnant in eastern Washington a couple of weekends ago, just a couple of ancient pumps (1930s era) in front of someone's house. Yes, Texaco gasoline really was sold there 80 years ago. But people have been driving on by since the 1950s, but the pumps are still there.

The degree to which we shape film's future is minuscule. It is the aggregate demand which shapes film's future, because demand for the product is everything. Thus, demand must exist for the product to continue to exist. I like commercial high-speed film. The only way to spark demand is to show that film is what somebody else wants, despite what they already have. Yes, we have to sell air conditioners to Eskimos and furnaces to desert dwellers.
 
There is only the standard demand and supply.

True statement. So? That is a very, very simplistic view. Demand is created and supply follows demand if there is money to be made. Classic case is the IPhone, and there are many others as well.

The Holga/Diana cameras are a classic example of someone creating demand where none existed. And that one has created the Lomography movement, which in turn has increased demand for film. And though a lot of us look down on them and call them "toys", the co-exist with digital. They are not trying to replace digital, only capitalize on the strength of film. A Holga costs around $45. For $7 I can load some film. Then I go play. For another $10 I get some really wierd pictures back that can be scanned and distributed to all my friends...on those same digital phones that have a camera built in.

You can do this same thing in digital but it takes time on computers to get a similar look. With the Holga it comes with the territory. And on digital it costs a heck of a lot more.

These are the types of things that need to be marketed. Pinhole is something else. Harmann Technologies has a nifty new pinhole camera out. Tough to mimic that with digital, especially for the money.

It isn't demand, it is creativity based on the strengths that film brings to the party.
 
Here is how much I care about Kodak...

Are they selling products I like and can easily buy and use? Then I love Kodak.

Are they killing off products I like and can easily buy and use? Then Kodak doesn't exist.

It is not Kodak, it is the products. If the products are gone then Kodak is gone. Their name and history mean nothing to me. Only the products I can buy and use.

I couldn't agree more. Kodak has some nice B&W products, but those aren't what I primarily shoot. They have some nice color negative stuff too but I don't shoot negative film for color. They no longer make transparency film, and there's no longer a good, inexpensive way to get transparencies from negatives. It's less expensive for me to go from transparency to print than it is to go from negative to print, so I shoot E-6.

I used to love Kodak's products. But now the only thing they have that I would use is B&W, and I hardly ever use that.
 
There is demand for Ilford products and they are doing well in how they monetize that demand. So while we all wait to see how Kodak fares in this re-tooling according to demand, I feel like there is indeed some missed opportunity in using the very technology that we claim has practically killed film demand in helping it gain perhaps a little more traction, we just need to innovate.

This perception thing is a huge problem and this 18 year old man really tells it like it is, a lot of the older folks might need to take a different attitude:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1925151&postcount=48
 
This perception thing is a huge problem and this 18 year old man really tells it like it is, a lot of the older folks might need to take a different attitude:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1925151&postcount=48

All I got from that is he only cares what people in his own age group think or have to offer. The tone of his message indicates that anyone older is close to death or crotchety and irrelevant. A typical perspective of an18 year old.

Amazingly, it's the very crotchety, near-death, people that invented and produced all the tools he both likes and dislikes,

But, that's perception for you.
 
This is now the same old bar fight and wildly OT.
 
True statement. So? That is a very, very simplistic view. Demand is created and supply follows demand if there is money to be made. Classic case is the IPhone, and there are many others as well.

That's because it is simple.
"The business side is easy -- easy! ...if you're any good at math at all, you understand business. It's not its own deep, deep subject. It's not like C++." -- Bill Gates

The Holga/Diana cameras are a classic example of someone creating demand where none existed. And that one has created the Lomography movement, which in turn has increased demand for film. And though a lot of us look down on them and call them "toys", the co-exist with digital. They are not trying to replace digital, only capitalize on the strength of film. A Holga costs around $45. For $7 I can load some film. Then I go play. For another $10 I get some really wierd pictures back that can be scanned and distributed to all my friends...on those same digital phones that have a camera built in.

You can do this same thing in digital but it takes time on computers to get a similar look. With the Holga it comes with the territory. And on digital it costs a heck of a lot more.

Actually, the Holga ($30 from Freestyle) and Diana cameras were made for the "really really cheap" camera market, not as an end in themselves. The Holga was made because the company's other products were tanking, in an effort to stave off bankruptcy. Lo and behold, it caught on as an "in" thing.

The Instagram app is free (but you give away all of your photo rights). The iPhone was paid for anyways, so the cost to the user is effectively $0 and you get everything right now, while each round of fun with the Holga costs nearly $20 and you might wait a week to see what you got from it. Developing 120 film isn't convenient any longer. In the Seattle area there are three labs that still do it, and I didn't like the results from one of them. (so $7 for film, $15 for development & proof sheet, $8 s&h, Panda Lab in Seattle, $30 total, and +$22 for a set of 5x5 prints on Kodak Endura. If using the camera sets you back $55 for every roll, how many times are you going to use the thing for fun?)

These are the types of things that need to be marketed. Pinhole is something else. Harmann Technologies has a nifty new pinhole camera out. Tough to mimic that with digital, especially for the money.

It isn't demand, it is creativity based on the strengths that film brings to the party.

Demand = money. Creativity does not necessarily result in money. That's just how it goes. The product has to be purchased for a company to make money. No purchases, no money. End of story.

As for the Harman Titan pinhole camera, have you used it? I have, and I also use 8x10. Using sheet film in anything other than Quickload/Readyload is not something that is fast or convenient. Not in the slightest. The Titan camera is a neat thing for LF users, or advanced amateurs who want to make the extra effort, but not for what I would regard as the average roll film user. It's not for the average Holga user. The user still has to purchase film holders, and maybe a changing bag, and may need to send the film off for processing. It requires extra effort, much more than using a Holga. A decent press camera can be had for not much more than the Titan.

Yes, artistic coolness must be marketed. Thing is, I haven't seen any marketing for the artistic coolness of film.
Have you?
 
I love these discussions. :smile:

And yet, the Holga kids (and adults) keep on buying film and shooting it in their cheap, plastic cameras, though it is costing them money. I don't pretend to understand the attraction but it is one of the few "film type" activities that my older grandchildren are all over, and my own kids as well.

I do shoot large format film, but not the Harman Titan, and I totally agree that it is not convenient at all. Again, I don't know why for sure, but I do know that the first run of Harman Titan pinhole cameras were sold out almost as soon as they hit the shelves. And they are still selling like hotcakes. So again, something turned out good.

As for your formula, you are right. Demand does equal money. But it is creativity and imagination that help create and build the demand.

And there are other things. Mention was made of our universities dropping their film programs and turning to digital. I think that is terrible but if you are waiting to catch people's interests until after they hit college, you have already lost. We need to be running programs for our kids. The pre-teens. Put some film cameras in their hands. Let them take same pictures. Get some eco sensitive chemicals and get them into the lab and let them expose and develop their own prints. You want to catch their imaginations early and that magic of seeing that face come to life on a blank piece of white paper is one way to do it. Those are the types of things that can make a difference.
 
Is the total number of Kodak employees laid off since the start of the digital revolution several times larger that the number of remaining Kodak employees?
 
Pioneer, I've found that when shooting a Holga I'm not hung up on whether or not to photograph something. It's just fun. Take a chance, push the button, no regrets, have some fun. Load another roll. Repeat.

A well-built camera seems to put some barrier of professional ostentatiousness between me and a subject. I tend not to go nuts photographing when I have my Pentax 645 or 6x7. But I do go loopy when I have my Holga.

Maybe what Kodak needs is a Fun division. Not marketing, not photo-evangelism, but fun.
 
Maybe what Kodak needs is a Fun division. Not marketing, not photo-evangelism, but fun.

there you go !!

they should come out with a series of commemorative box cameras

"the original holga "

thanks brian you made my night

- john
 
I have to agree...make film shooting equivalent to fun....that's the whole deal with the lomography/holga movelment and it seems to be working.

there you go !!

they should come out with a series of commemorative box cameras

"the original holga "

thanks brian you made my night

- john
 
I have to agree...make film shooting equivalent to fun....that's the whole deal with the lomography/holga movelment and it seems to be working.

My granddaughters love their little Holgas. I am continually roaming E-Bay looking for expired film deals and I have to ration their film or they will bankrupt me. I actually have to put MY film on top of the shelf or they will start using that. I dread what will happen if they figure out what is in those boxes in the freezer. And I had to get two more daylight developing tanks so they could load and develop their own film. They have gotten pretty good now but in the beginning I have no idea how many rolls of expired 120 I trashed because they didn't get it spooled right. But it don't stop them, they just keep trucking along. If I would have been smart I would have bought them 35mm Holgas.

And waiting? Psshaw. Its like Christmas every week. They can't wait until it is time to develop their rolls of film. Now we have started printing and I am actually looking around for a very cheap enlarger that can handle 6x6 negatives. The way things are going they will be monopolizing my Beseler and I won't get any time on it for my own stuff. What they have absorbed in the last few months took me years to learn, but they suck it up like liittle sponges.

They both have cameras in their cell phones, and they use them all the time too. They take pictures of each other taking pictures for crying out loud. They could care less about digital vs film. To them they really are different things. They like the digital for the instant feedback, but they like the film because of the uncertainty.

But whatever it is they like, you can see the magic in their eyes. You are exactly right Brian. They are having fun! I have to admit, it is making the summer go by quick. Good thing to, I'm not sure those poor Holgas will survive much longer. They are getting a beating. They have tape all over them, not to stop the light leaks, the girls could care less about that, it is what is keeping the poor things together. Next week we are going to build a couple of oatmeal box pinhole cameras so we will soon see if they enjoy that as much.
 
I do what I can to encourage film use. My son loves projecting slides. In that respect he's like me. Sadly, Kodak no longer makes transparency film. So he and I are Fuji shooters. Back in the day, if it wasn't Kodak, I didn't look twice at it.

My daughter took a few pictures with my son's camera and liked it, so I think I will get her a film SLR for her birthday. She likes both B&W and color, but doesn't want to shoot slides, so I'll be picking up some print film for her. Probably T-Max, and some Kodak color negative. So she will be the Kodak shooter more than likely.

Earlier I said I didn't shoot any Kodak. That's not entirely true. The occasional roll of B&W is Kodak, and I do shoot digital on a Kodak P&S. The cameras just seem to behave more predictably than other brands of digital P&Ses (the exception being the one Pentax digisnapper I had - that was a sweet camera for a P&S).
 
@Pioneer,
I know what you mean about rationing the film and it being like Christmas every week. Even though we send ours out to a lab instead of processing it ourselves, we still like getting the slides back and tossing them in the projector for the very first time.
 
It doesn't really matter. The divisions are only in the sales departments. The departments making actual product will not be divided up.

I think it matters - from our point of view - because if film products had their own division it would be easier for a prospective buyer to figure out how profitable/not profitable film production is at Kodak.

Splitting film products into several divisions makes the sale - refinancing etc. of each division easier to understand for a prospective buyer/financier but not the "film and film related products" per se.

That also works in case of liquidation. If film were a separate entity and were profitable it would be easier to find a buyer in case of liquidation.
 
The last eight data points fit that curve very well. Looks like around a year left until zero, at least in Rochester. Reality sucks.

no way sal,
its all cute puppies, butterfly kisses, rainbows and unicorns ...

its too bad LOMO doesn't have enough cash on hand to buy the film division
its them and HOLGA who are the new face of film based photography
 
there you go !!

they should come out with a series of commemorative box cameras

"the original holga "

thanks brian you made my night

- john

Agree, sell it in the lomo store and people would probably eat it up...for a healthy profit no doubt
 
What's ahead?

Commemorative 126 Instamatic for the 50th anniversary in 2013 !!



That could happen (if a company from China buys the camera part of Kodak).

I grew up in Ann Arbor, Michigan - the home of the Argus camera. Argus went belly up after being purchased by Sylvania in the late 1950's. Many years later - in the early 1990's If I remember correctly - I saw an Argus Camera booth at the Photo Marketing Association (PMA) Trade Show with a nice display of old Argus products and a bunch of new low-end 'stuff'. Argus Camera is now a holding company out of Illinois bringing in low end products from Asia. It amuses me to see them still claim the Argus heritage Dead Link Removed

This is what I fear will happen to Kodak.
 
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