Kodak Alaris Deal with Sino Promise Holdings?

[Mick Fagan]

You may be proving my point. Who has more ability to invest in 'film manufacturing entities", China or the EU?

If China wanted EU entities they could just buy them....all Western businesses are capitalist, they all have a price.

Well, some businesses do not have a price, western or eastern.

https://www.griequity.com/resources/industryandissues/familybusiness/oldestinworld.html

Mick.

 

[Henning Serger]

Few corporations have factories that are located near their ownership., who are typically stock holders (who are international)

Well, that is not generally the case in the film and photo paper manufacturing industry. Only a small minority of film/paper manufacturers are companies listed at the stock market. The majority is not.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

If YOU wanted to manufacture film, chemistry, cameras etc...in honesty would you manufacture anywhere other than Asia somewhere?

If I would want to make film, I would look where the knowledge is (chemists and engineers), because film manufacturing is extremely difficult.You need the experts, it is "rocket-science":
- most film manufacturers are located in Europe (Harman technology, Agfa, Foma, Polaroid, InovisCoat/Inovisproject, ADOX, Film Ferrania, FilmoTec, Tasma, Slavich/Micron, Washi)
- there is one located in the US (Eastman Kodak)
- there is one located in Japan (Fujifilm)
- there is none in South East Asia, South America and Australia
- there are two in China (Lucky and Shanghai), but both are offering only lower quality products in comparison to the competition
- probably I would look in my own country (Germany), because we have three film manufacturers here (and I know them ). And we have five photo chemistry manufacturers here.

For cameras:
The best design knowledge is given in Japan, followed by Germany if you look at high quality cameras.
If you want cheap cameras and mass production, go to (still) China ,Vietnam, Thailand, Phillipines. By the way, China is already loosing lots of its cheap mass production capacities (in lots of industry sectors) to other countries with cheaper labor, because Chinese wages have increased a lot in the last years. China is loosing jobs of million of workers, and that is a huge challenge for the Chinese economy.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

You may be proving my point. Who has more ability to invest in 'film manufacturing entities", China or the EU?

The EU. Therefore most film manufacturers are located in the EU.

If China wanted EU entities they could just buy them....all Western businesses are capitalist, they all have a price.

A very US-centric point of view........fortunately both the attitude and economic systems in lots of western countries are quite different to the US in relevant parameters. I only have to look at Japan or the German "Mittelstand" and German "Familienunternehmen". They don't care so much for short term profits, but much more for their heritage and long-term sustainable business.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[jtk]

The EU. Therefore most film manufacturers are located in the EU.



A very US-centric point of view........fortunately both the attitude and economic systems in lots of western countries are quite different to the US in relevant parameters. I only have to look at Japan or the German "Mittelstand" and German "Familienunternehmen". They don't care so much for short term profits, but much more for their heritage and long-term sustainable business.

Best regards,
Henning

Amusing. Obviously, the capitalist world is almost totally "US-centric). The very existence of modern Germany and Japan is due to the US..

Any company with a significant exposure to any of the stock/bond markets is driven by shareholders and creditors who are mostly institutional (not individuals fyi)...those companies are ethically (and legally) obligated to seek longterm price appreciation. If a public company failed to "care" for stockholders and creditors it would be acquired cheaply by new owner (e.g. Buffet).

 

[Henning Serger]

Amusing. Obviously, the capitalist world is almost totally "US-centric). The very existence of modern Germany and Japan is due to the US.

Your comment just shows how little knowledge you have about the German economic system (Soziale Marktwirtschaft, Ordoliberalismus).
I have studied economics and are working in economic research for a very long time. And I can ensure you that there are very significant differences between the economic system in the US and in Germany.
Just as a current example much, much less people in Germany are loosing their jobs due to Covid-19 crisis in comparison to the US. And that is exactly because of these different structures and economic policies.

Any company with a significant exposure to any of the stock/bond markets is driven by shareholders and creditors who are mostly institutional .....

No one here has said otherwise.
But as explained above, it has not so much relevance to film production because most film manufacturers are not companies listed at the stock market.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

We could probably do with a greater appreciation of this approach here in the UK.

Definitely, Tom.
But unfortunately it will not happen, because the current government in the UK is driven by an economic mindset which is going in the opposite direction. It is the same mindset which led to the de-industrialization process in the UK (loosing more than half of the national workforce in industrial production) during the Thatcher era.
I well remember the discussion of that topic with Simon Galley and his colleagues at our factory visit at Ilford Photo. We all agreed that fundamental mistakes were made concerning national/UK industrial policy at that time.
For an economist like me with huge interest in economic history all this is a fascinating topic. I could write a long article about it. But of course it would go much too far, and would be out of topic here in this thread. So let's stay with the original topic.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[jtk]

Definitely, Tom.
But unfortunately it will not happen, because the current government in the UK is driven by an economic mindset which is going in the opposite direction. It is the same mindset which led to the de-industrialization process in the UK (loosing more than half of the national workforce in industrial production) during the Thatcher era.
I well remember the discussion of that topic with Simon Galley and his colleagues at our factory visit at Ilford Photo. We all agreed that fundamental mistakes were made concerning national/UK industrial policy at that time.
For an economist like me with huge interest in economic history all this is a fascinating topic. I could write a long article about it. But of course it would go much too far, and would be out of topic here in this thread. So let's stay with the original topic.

Best regards,
Henning

History and economics can be fascinating topics, however the German and Japanese exchanges mentioned by Henning are quaint, feudal leftovers that revived slightly in recent years.

That there may be no film manufacturers in China (a mere assertion) is irrelevant because if the Chinese wanted to manufacture film, rather than buy it cheaply (current prices) from US or EU, they'd reverse engineer and make their own if they didn't choose to buy US or EU companies outright. The Chinese have unlimited purse, unlike US and EU...

 

[Alan Johnson]

Today an article on Petapixel:
https://petapixel.com/2020/07/16/wh...and-chemistry-to-china-is-a-good-development/

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

History and economics can be fascinating topics, however the German and Japanese exchanges mentioned by Henning are quaint, feudal leftovers that revived slightly in recent years.

That there may be no film manufacturers in China (a mere assertion) is irrelevant because if the Chinese wanted to manufacture film, rather than buy it cheaply (current prices) from US or EU, they'd reverse engineer and make their own if they didn't choose to buy US or EU companies outright. The Chinese have unlimited purse, unlike US and EU...

My understanding is that the government only supports (and owns) the larger enterprises like banks and major industrial organizations. A small film maker and other smaller enterprises are left to private capital. Certainly they could steal and make the product. But with Trump causing them major problems with tariffs and screaming about their theft of intellectual secrets, the stealing company might lose the American market to sell too and probably other markets as well once the US government puts the pressure on. So they have to do it like others. The have to buy it. Also, by buying it they get the equipment in the deal as well, and maybe all kinds of distribution channels to sell other stuff they make or will make in the future.

 

[Henning Serger]

History and economics can be fascinating topics, however the German and Japanese exchanges mentioned by Henning are quaint, feudal leftovers that revived slightly in recent years.

With all respect, but that is completely wrong and has absolutely nothing to do with reality! You really don't know anything about Germany.
Germany belongs to the least "feudal" countries in the world. And the German economic system (Soziale Marktwirtschaft, Ordoliberalismus, Sozialpartnerschaft) is the most "anti-feudal" modern economic system you could imagine. It was established after the Second World War, designed by very open-minded, non-ideological economic scientists as a reaction to the Great Depression and the horror of the Nazi regime.

That there may be no film manufacturers in China (a mere assertion) is irrelevant because if the Chinese wanted to manufacture film, rather than buy it cheaply (current prices) from US or EU, they'd reverse engineer and make their own if they didn't choose to buy US or EU companies outright. The Chinese have unlimited purse, unlike US and EU...

Wrong.
1. There are two Chinese film manufacturers.
2. No possibility for Chinese to buy a foreign film manufacturer because there is no film manufacturer for sale. Period.
3. You cannot simply "reverse engineer" film production. It is much too complicated for that.
4. Even the Chinese don't have umlimited funds. They have significant debt problems in their economy, which are covered by the government.

Back to topic: We don't have any official statement for this deal yet. Best to avoid speculation and wait for the real, final information.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[mshchem]

With all respect, but that is completely wrong and has absolutely nothing to do with reality! You really don't know anything about Germany.
Germany belongs to the least "feudal" countries in the world. And the German economic system (Soziale Marktwirtschaft, Ordoliberalismus, Sozialpartnerschaft) is the most "anti-feudal" modern economic system you could imagine. It was established after the Second World War, designed by very open-minded, non-ideological economic scientists as a reaction to the Great Depression and the horror of the Nazi regime.



Wrong.
1. There are two Chinese film manufacturers.
2. No possibility for Chinese to buy a foreign film manufacturer because there is no film manufacturer for sale. Period.
3. You cannot simply "reverse engineer" film production. It is much too complicated for that.
4. Even the Chinese don't have umlimited funds. They have significant debt problems in their economy, which are covered by the government.

Back to topic: We don't have any official statement for this deal yet. Best to avoid speculation and wait for the real, final information.

Best regards,
Henning

The US economic "system" is a joke compared to Germany. I am not an expert in history, but I remember the "economic miracle" in West Germany. Konrad Adenauer who served many years as chancellor (?) The recovery from the devastation of the war, really was nothing short of a miracle. I've had the pleasure of visiting Germany on business. There is fair distribution of government services, much better education system. The US corporate mentality is cutthroat, adversarial with the labor force, unions, etc. I visited BASF, Bayer, other companies.

When I was watching the two videos about Sino Promise, I noticed they mentioned that they had purchased a German made slitter for the paper finishing operation. The processing machines for making RA-4 prints are Noritsu (Japan). It will be interesting to see how they start the actual coating of color negative paper. From what I gather they finish master rolls???

The Asian markets are a huge business for Fujifilm color paper, this operation by Sino Promise is located where the customers are.

I hope somehow Eastman Kodak's film business and Kodak Alaris' film business can be brought together by a "White Knight" and we will live happily ever after. (Oh, and bring Agfa back too!)

 

[Henning Serger]

When I was watching the two videos about Sino Promise, I noticed they mentioned that they had purchased a German made slitter for the paper finishing operation. The processing machines for making RA-4 prints are Noritsu (Japan). It will be interesting to see how they start the actual coating of color negative paper. From what I gather they finish master rolls???

They have only the capability to finish CN paper. The emulsion making and coating will be done as contract coating at the same location as in the past, in the US. The masterrolls are then shipped for finishing to Sino Promise.

The Asian markets are a huge business for Fujifilm color paper, this operation by Sino Promise is located where the customers are.

Not only the Asian markets. North America and Europe, too. Therefore Fujifilm has three RA-4 silver halide paper factories: One in the US, one in the Netherlands (Tilburg), and one in Japan.
The global demand for CN paper is still about 300 million m² p.a.. The price-performance ratio of RA-4 paper is unsurpassed. And it is by far the best medium for high-volume output of quality prints. Productivity is unmatched. For example my local professional lab can make up to 9.000 RA-4 prints per day. Offering RA-4 prints on demand in such high volumes for prof. customers give them a real advantage in competition.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[mshchem]

Maybe with a bit of persuasion, we could get Sino Promise, to provide cut sheets of Kodak's professional papers? Probably not.

 

[Henning Serger]

Maybe with a bit of persuasion, we could get Sino Promise, to provide cut sheets of Kodak's professional papers? Probably not.

By far the biggest market for RA-4 CN paper are professional labs. They all use rolls for their machines, not sheets. Demand for sheet film is tiny compard to that, less than 1%.
And you need different machinery for finishing sheet film.
You could ask e.g. ADOX to finish Kodak paper rolls to sheet film. They are already doing it with Fujifilm CN paper. The question is of course, whether there will be enough demand for this additional service so that all the effort will be profitable for ADOX. The users are very satiesfied with the Fujifilm paper.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[removed account4]

I guess Sino Promise can now manufacture paper and chemicals with the Kodak brand name, but how much is that worth?

maybe they will start marketing flashlights, visors, and cordless shavers like bell and Howell “ a well know name of over 100’years they we can trust “.

 

[cmacd123]

maybe they will start marketing flashlights, visors, and cordless shavers like bell and Howell “ a well know name of over 100’years they we can trust “.

EASTMAN Kodak already has deals like that to rent out the Kodak Name.
see https://www.kodak.com/CA/en/consumer/default.htm

 

[AgX]

The US economic "system" is a joke compared to Germany. I am not an expert in history, but I remember the "economic miracle" in West Germany. Konrad Adenauer who served many years as chancellor (?) The recovery from the devastation of the war, really was nothing short of a miracle.

Not a miracle at all, but a kind of bribing to make West-Germany part of the US-controlled world, fixing the splitting of Europe and of Germany.

 

[mshchem]

By far the biggest market for RA-4 CN paper are professional labs. They all use rolls for their machines, not sheets. Demand for sheet film is tiny compard to that, less than 1%.
And you need different machinery for finishing sheet film.
You could ask e.g. ADOX to finish Kodak paper rolls to sheet film. They are already doing it with Fujifilm CN paper. The question is of course, whether there will be enough demand for this additional service so that all the effort will be profitable for ADOX. The users are very satiesfied with the Fujifilm paper.

Best regards,
Henning

I use Fuji Crystal Archive paper with excellent results. I do understand that it's not much of a market. I can use rolls, I have a local shop who will sell me single rolls. Just a pain.