Kodachrome - Totally dead?

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PaulDK

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Hey everyone.

Here's a question I have been wondering about for a while now. As we all know Kodachrome is off the market, but could it technically be produced again if the demand is huge enough? Or, does the Kodak chemicals and the calibrated machinery which was used in the production, simply don't exist anymore?
 

AgX

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This might be the start of a wonderful long thread...

-) Basically everything can be re-made as long as the knowledge is there. As I pointed out before the knowledge will be a limiting factor for the industry.

-) Many companies did manufacture and proces similar materials in the past.

-) Kodachrome did not need other coating machines than usual in the industry.

-) Neccessary elements to form the emulsion/developer could be made again

-) The processor was different though. And seemingly worldwide no working sample is in existance any more.


So aside of that knowledge factor it is a question of finance and thus of sales.
You are free to approach any manufacturer, order Kodachrome and pay in advance.

(As far as we know Kodak had been approached on this matter but did not even want to discuss it. Either they did expect not to get the money it would cost, or they already had been preparing for their bancrupsy...)
 
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PaulDK

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Someone should gather a crowd, make some "We want kodachrome" banners and march in front of Kodak's headquarters :smile:
 

Sirius Glass

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Totally dead. Rest in peace.

* 10

By now some of the critical undocumented knowledge has been lost. Without the knowledge producing Kodachrome could not succeed without years of experimentation and testing and then there is a good chance it would never succeed.

Save the bandwidth for useful and possible technologies.
 

Pioneer

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Yeah. Progress is a necessary evil but sometimes the baby gets tossed out with the bathwater.
 

Roger Cole

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As if this hasn't been beaten thoroughly to death. In this case I'm starting to share PE's reactions.

Yes of course it COULD be. The technology to make it is probably simpler than for E6, at the expense of developing it. It was developed by two chemists many decades ago and developed the first time in a bathtub - by skilled chemists.

But will it be? NO. It's completely dead. Gone. Deceased. Resting in peace. Pushing up daisies. KAPUT.

I loved it in a way too, though I didn't shoot much of it. And I think that's true for a lot of people. The combination of the fact I couldn't process it myself and that the speed was limited to no more than 64 (ok, there was K200 for a while but it was grainier and generally inferior to 200-400 E6 products) just didn't make it all that useful for me most of the time.

I think it would be more likely for Fuji to bring back Astia or Privia 400X, both of which would be totally served by existing tech for processing and either of which would be more useful to me and many, much as we may love Kodacrhome.
 
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railwayman3

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Technically, all the information is documented and, in theory, with sufficient money, the emulsions could be recreated and the coating done without too much of a problem.

However, the issue would be the lost undocumented skills, and, particularly as time passes and the skilled personnel are no longer around or available, more and more of the original R & D would have to be repeated.

Rather like me trying to take up artistic painting....all the brushes, paints, canvas, etc., are easily available together with books and videos to show me what to do. But until I'd actually tried, practiced, got "the feel" of the work, and learned from many mistakes over a long period of time, I would not produce a satisfactory "product" in the form of a saleable painting.
 

MattKing

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Many of the constituent chemicals are no longer being produced anywhere. So you might have to build your own chemical factory to solve that problem.

And what market would you be serving - the one (E6) that is currently declining rapidly?
 

Tom1956

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I wish God had put on on a planet the size of Jupiter instead of this little ball. See my logic? There would be gajillions of us, and certainly somewhere in the world would be a market for something and people to produce it.
 

Gerald C Koch

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A rabid minority cannot compete with an indifferent majority. In an era of diminished film sales Kodachrome is not coming back.

'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!

Apologies to Monty Python.
 
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PaulDK

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A rabid minority cannot compete with an indifferent majority. In an era of diminished film sales Kodachrome is not coming back.

'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!

Apologies to Monty Python.

You mean...this is an ex-'E'? :D
 

MaximusM3

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I don't get it at this point. Kodachrome is dead and it will stay like that. it's dead because few were buying and few were using it. What makes one think that Kodak (or anyone else) would be willing to bring back a product that requires extensive knowledge and dedicated machinery to process just to please a handful of people? If it's not a viable business, it's dead. Period. Heck, even E6 is gasping for air and that can actually be processed at home without much complication.
 

falotico

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Kodachrome can be manufactured again. It has an elegant structure.

Kodachrome is probably the simplest successful design for dye-coupler color film, which is likely the reason it was the first produced. A wonderful essay concerning its development is in a chapter of the Time/Life book on color photography titled "Color". The principles behind Kodachrome are still in use today.

Basically the film had three layers of emulsion each sensitive to one of the primary colors of white light. These colors are blue, green and red. Emulsions with simple ingredients are sensitive only to blue light, so producing that layer of the film is easy. However every other kind of emulsion is also sensitive to blue light. To prevent the blue light from exposing the wrong layer the blue light has to be filtered out by a filter layer which allows only green light and red light to pass through it. Such a filter layer is yellow in color. Kodachrome could have used a yellow dye for this filter layer, but it adopted a brilliant innovation instead: the filter layer contained colloidal silver which just happens to be yellow in color. (There are recipes for the synthesis of colloidal silver dating back to c.1905). Since Kodachrome is designed so that all the silver in the film will be dissolved out during development, no special step is necessary to wash out this colloidal silver. The film under the filter layer will only be exposed to green and red light.




The layer of emulsion underneath the colloidal silver layer is sensitive to green light. Many dyes will make film sensitive to green light (erythrosine, for example, which is a food coloring). The final light-sensitive emulsion layer is sensitive to red light. PE, who held one of the patents on Kodachrome, identified the dye which sensitized Kodachrome to red light as Sand's SDA3057. This dye is stable enough to withstand the developing chemicals and still impart red sensitivity to the red light layer during the correct moment in the processing.



Kodachrome produces a positive color image in the form of a transparent slide or frame of movie film. To produce a positive image the film must be developed through a reversal process. So to start, the exposed film is bathed in a black and white developer to develop the latent image in each layer of the film. The top layer now has a negative corresponding to the image formed by blue light; the intermediate layer has silver metal grains corresponding to a negative of the image formed by green light; and the bottom layer forms a silver metal negative image of the red light exposure. The UNEXPOSED silver-halide grains still remain in each of the layers and are still light sensitive. They will be used to produce the colors.


All shades and hues produced by color film are made by a mixture of only three complementary colors. These are yellow, magenta and cyan (sky-blue). Color work requires us to be precise about shades and hues. Yellow is self explanatory. The color blue is the blue of a sapphire; darker than the sky--more of a royal blue. Sky-blue (cyan) is actually a mixture of blue and green light. Similarly, magenta is a mixture of red and blue light. The color red refers to shade very close to a ruby.




In the red sensitive layer, after the black and white development, all of the exposed grains sensitive to red light are now developed. The UNEXPOSED grains in this layer now correspond to the sections of the image made up of blue and green light. So if we develop just these grains and at the same time produce the color blue-green (cyan) then that layer will contain the correct positive component for the blue-green colors of the scene we photographed. We can develop these unexposed grains in the bottom layer by exposing them to red light, since they are still red light sensitive. Then we develop them with a liquid which produces cyan dye next to the silver-halide grains which the liquid develops. None of the unexposed grains in the green layer and in the blue layer will be developable since they are not sensitive to red light and therefore not exposed.




The unexposed grains of silver-halide in the blue light layer correspond to a positive image of the green and red light in the scene. Green and red light make the color yellow, so if we develop the unexposed grains in the top layer and at the same time lay down a yellow color, then that layer will contain a positive component of the scene corresponding to the yellow color. The blue light sensitive layer is exposed to blue light from the front of the film, exposing all the unexposed grains in that layer. The unexposed grains in the green light layer are protected from exposure by the intact colloidal filter layer above them. Thus, developing with a liquid which manufactures a yellow dye at the same time as it develops will only develop the grains in the top, blue-sensitive, layer of the film.




The only unexposed grains left in the film now are in the green light layer. These unexposed grains correspond to the red and blue areas of the photograph. The film may be exposed to daylight to expose these grains or a special chemical may be used to make these last remaining grains developable. They are developed with a liquid which produces a blue/red dye (magenta) when a grain is developed.


Finally all of the silver is dissolved out of the film using a well know liquid known as Farmer's Reducer--or something like it. This leaves only the yellow dye image; the magenta dye image; and the cyan dye image; a full-color photograph.




The liquid which manufactures the yellow, magenta and cyan dye molecules while the grains are being developed is called a "color developer". Generally it is an aqueous solution containing p-phenylenediamine (or a chemical like it). The lab adds to this liquid another chemical called a "dye coupler" to produce each specific color, yellow, magenta, cyan. Evans, Hanson and Brewer in chapter VII of "Principles of Color Photography" identify these color couplers as suitable for Kodachrome:


cyan
2,4-dichloro-1-naphthol


magenta
p-nitrobenzyl-cyanide


yellow
naphthoylacetanilide
 

PKM-25

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Kodachrome can be manufactured again. It has an elegant structure.

Oh, no doubt if someone ponied up the money...but it is not coming back, it is done. Really....it is gone folks.
 

removed account4

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instead of a single slide it is possible to do this
the old fashioned way
making tri color slides
by finding the opposite of RED 25, GREEN 58 and BLUE 47
and exposing 3 separate b/w films, sending them to dr5
getting positives and projecting them as an overlapped tri color
technicolor type image ... while it kind of the same as a kodachrome
its doable and not hard ... and the resulting images can be
quite beautiful like these

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Now there you go. It would be awesome to see some of us just figure out a way to do this on our own. You know, push that APUG envelope.

Oh, and by some of us I meant to say some of you. At this time it is way over my head and means (time). But, still, would be very cool.
 

thegman

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Much as it would be exciting to see Kodachrome come back (I came to photography too recently to have much experience of it, and only shot one roll), we'd still be left with the problem of no labs. I expect a couple could spring up, but I think we'd basically be resurrecting Kodachrome just to see it die off again.

I wonder if it might be easier and more practicable for a film maker to produce a C41 or E6 film which looked a lot like Kodachrome? At least then if such a film were made, it could be taken to our regular labs.
 

ME Super

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'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!

No 'E's not. 'E's pinin' for the fjords!

Sorry, I couldn't help it. After the knights who formerly say "Nii" got their shrubbery, they made me do it in order to pass through their territory. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some E-6 to shoot, before it "pines for the fjords" too.
 

ME Super

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If you're looking for a C41 film that looks a bit like Kodachrome, look no further than Kodak's own Ektar 100. It has the punchy color of slide film, and pretty vibrant reds. No its not exact, nothing will ever look exactly like Kodachrome, but Ektar is a decent substitute if you're not looking to project. If you're doing projection, though, Ektar ain't gonna work as it's a negative film.

I'm getting ready to try out a roll of Wittner Chrome 200D. It's Agfa-Gevart's Aviphot Chrome 200 emulsion, based on RSX 200 but on a polyester base instead of triacetate. Reportedly it's not snot yellow like the 35mm Rollei CR200, and from the scans I've seen it's lower contrast, and more like Kodachrome than Fuji's Velvia and Provia films, which are beautiful films in their own right. Again, it ain't Kodachrome, nothing will ever be exactly like Kodachrome. Shipping from Germany to the midwestern US took 2 weeks and cost 10 Euros for 3 rolls of the Wittner Chrome 200D. If this works out okay I'll be ordering more which will spread the shipping cost out over more rolls - couldn't see ordering oodles of this stuff if it did end up snot yellow like the Rollei CR200.

Don't be put off by the website's German language. Google Chrome will happily translate it to English for you. No, it's not exactly perfect English, but good enough to get the point across. And the stuff comes in non-DX coded cartridges that are labeled in gramatically correct English.
 
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