Kiev 88 with digital back

[Kievmarc]

Hi everyone,
almost a month ago I saw, almost by chance, the "new" Hasselblad CFV system, which can also be used with analog cameras. My passion for technology and my vintage soul were thrilled to discover the union of medium format and digital photography. Since we're talking about Hasselblad, the cost of this plug-and-play system is high and out of my budget, but I didn't give up, and by searching here and there, I learned about Arsenal and Kiev 88.
I won't deny that from that fateful day until today, it's been a real roller coaster of emotions for me, because on alternate days I thought I had everything figured out and on others, nothing seemed to fit, combined with the fact that it takes me forever to make a final decision on the subject.

I'm therefore opening this thread to ask for help from those familiar with the Kiev 88 and digital backs to plan and complete this project, particularly @itsdoable who I understand has done something similar.

I should point out that I don't have any materials yet because I want to be sure of the compatibility of the various parts and their availability on the used market, and I don't know how quickly I'll be able to proceed.

Essentially, I'd like to connect the body of a Kiev 88, chosen for its affordability and the various lenses, its Hassy-chic look, and its robustness (at least once repaired), to a digital back. Since Phase One P45 or P65 backs with a Hasselblad V mount aren't available anywhere in Europe, I've opted for the Sinar Sinarback eVolution 75+ (Sinar backs are generally more readily available and more affordable) with the appropriate adapter.

Since I don't even own a Kiev 88, I've been looking at various offers, and now I have two options:
- the first is to buy a complete kit consisting of a camera body, two film magazines, a TTL pentaprism viewfinder, a waist-level viewfinder, Volna, Kaleinar, Zodiak, and Mir-26, 28, and 36 lenses for the super price of €500. This would be the perfect choice, except that it only has X-sync and no FP;
- the second option is to buy a camera body that doesn't work with both X-sync and FP, send it to Arax, and essentially upgrade it to an Arax CM: the entire deal costs about €680. This is in the price range of a Hasselblad 500C, but obviously you can save some money by purchasing Arsenal lenses (I'm not sure if Zeiss Jena lenses are cheap, to be honest).

So I ask @itsdoable : is FP sync really necessary for the digital back to work (I don't think there's any difference between Sinar and Phase One)? In theory, you can't set shutter speeds faster than 1/30, since that's the maximum shutter speed the shutter can be fully open.
Perhaps it's used to send the wake signal to the digital back?
In that case, can't a wake-up cable connected to a standard x-sync cable be used?

 

[F4U]

I learned a hard and bitter lesson owning ONE old Soviet camera. I shall never own another, much less spend money on an expensive digital retrofit back. I can think of no surer way of throwing good money after bad. On old genuine Hasselblad is bad enough. They are prone to jam, need service, and are not particularly convenient to use. If you want to pursue your idea the right way, get a genuine Hasselblad, have it professionally serviced, THEN continue with your digital back idea. As for the old Soviet replicas, they appear to be just as pretty, but if you've ever worked on cameras, you will see what complete junk they are.

 

[B.S.Kumar]

As @F4U writes, Kiev cameras are a bit of a gamble. You might get a good performer, you might not. But if you do want a Sinarback, I'm thinking of selling my 54H and 75H backs. Both have Hasselblad V mounts.

Kumar

 

[Kievmarc]

I learned a hard and bitter lesson owning ONE old Soviet camera. I shall never own another, much less spend money on an expensive digital retrofit back. I can think of no surer way of throwing good money after bad. On old genuine Hasselblad is bad enough. They are prone to jam, need service, and are not particularly convenient to use. If you want to pursue your idea the right way, get a genuine Hasselblad, have it professionally serviced, THEN continue with your digital back idea. As for the old Soviet replicas, they appear to be just as pretty, but if you've ever worked on cameras, you will see what complete junk they are.

As @F4U writes, Kiev cameras are a bit of a gamble. You might get a good performer, you might not. But if you do want a Sinarback, I'm thinking of selling my 54H and 75H backs. Both have Hasselblad V mounts.

Kumar

Thanks for the reply.
I'm aware that Soviet cameras, and especially the Kiev, don't enjoy a great reputation, particularly for their reliability. However, it's also true that these defects are due more to a lack of final quality control and maintenance than to design (they copied the Hasselblad 1000F after all). In fact, I don't think anyone in the past has ever decided to spend $80 to $120 to fix cameras they bought at a flea market for $50. Now, perhaps it's worth it, but let's leave that for another time.

The defects I've read about and that everyone complains about are:
- imaginative film advance and the back's light-tightness (which, at least, isn't an issue when shooting digital);
- inaccurate shutter speeds.
These are defects that, in fact, can be easily resolved with regular maintenance.

Returning to my specific case, if the type of flash sync isn't that crucial, being able to take home a fully equipped and, above all, serviced kit for the same price as a Hasselblad body alone (plus all the Zeiss lenses to add) is quite an achievement. I've chosen Kiev precisely because it allows me to first decide whether I like shooting in analog medium format with such vintage cameras and then switch to digital for the immediate results. Or, I can abandon everything without too many regrets. In any case, I could always decide to switch to a Hasselblad at a later date, since the digital back would work anyway.

It's not that I haven't considered buying a Hasselblad (the 500 with the lens shutter would be the best choice for connecting to a digital back), it's just that beyond the cost of the camera body, what makes you spend so much are the lenses. The Sonnar 150mm for portraits can be found for no less than €400 (I could even replace it with the Sonnar 250mm, which I don't think anyone would mind due to its weight and costs half as much), but the real problem is the landscape lenses: the Distagon is still in the Sonnar range, and the Planar has reached prices of €700.

As @F4U writes, Kiev cameras are a bit of a gamble. You might get a good performer, you might not. But if you do want a Sinarback, I'm thinking of selling my 54H and 75H backs. Both have Hasselblad V mounts.

Kumar

It would certainly be interesting, although not a little worried about the cost of shipping to Italy and the cost of customs

 

[B.S.Kumar]

That is pretty good reasoning and I hope you find a good copy of the camera.
The back's light tightness (or lack of it) could be due to the camera body or the back, so that is something that still might be concern.
The type of flash sync isn't crucial, as long as it syncs. You might also want to use barrel lenses!

If you've seen any of my listings, my prices are always inclusive of shipping. Customs duties depend on country of origin, not country of shipping. I don't know if a Swiss product would attract customs duty in the EU? In any case, I'll let you know in the coming week or so.

Kumar

 

[Kievmarc]

That is pretty good reasoning and I hope you find a good copy of the camera.
The back's light tightness (or lack of it) could be due to the camera body or the back, so that is something that still might be concern.
The type of flash sync isn't crucial, as long as it syncs. You might also want to use barrel lenses!

Let's hope to find a good one.

So it depends from one digital back to another if it syncs with the flash? What do you mean to use barrel lenses?

Since you said you have Sinars with a Hasselblad V adapter, I assume you connected the digital back to an analog Hasselblad. What are your thoughts on this? How did you make the connections?

 

[B.S.Kumar]

I was using the backs on Sinar cameras. I've never used Hasselblad cameras.

Digital backs need a flash sync cord from the back to the flash sync port on the lens. Some cameras have electronic contacts on the body itself. For example, Mamiya 645 cameras have focal plane shutters and contacts on the body that mate with the contacts on the back.

If the Kiev has a regular flash sync port, you should be able to connect it to the back.

Barrel lenses are those lenses that have no shutter. Older lenses can give a very different rendering compared to newer lenses.

Kumar

 

[Kievmarc]

Digital backs need a flash sync cord from the back to the flash sync port on the lens. Some cameras have electronic contacts on the body itself. For example, Mamiya 645 cameras have focal plane shutters and contacts on the body that mate with the contacts on the back.

If the Kiev has a regular flash sync port, you should be able to connect it to the back.

Yes, in the late Kiev 88 (those most commonly found) have a X-sync port on the left side of the body, as show in the picture below

However the first production of the Kiev 88 had also a FP-sync module, so through a switch you could select both the old contact for the bulb flashes and the more "modern" one, as shown in the picture below (it's the Kiev of itsdoable)

So if the type of sync doesn't matter because because the digital back will work anymays, I will definetly go for the the complete kit just serviced as it has also all the lenses I could've asked for.

Barrel lenses are those lenses that have no shutter. Older lenses can give a very different rendering compared to newer lenses.

Kumar

Oh I see! With those lenses and an external shutter combined it would be possible to overcome the slowness of the focal plane shutter by leaving it open all the time and synchronizing the digital back with the external shutter (basically the body is just a box). The only problem is that I don't believe there are any external shutters that have the Kiev 88 connection (that kind of screw that's only present on that model), so it would be necessary to have the Kiev modified to accommodate the Pentacon 6 connection (again, I don't know if there are any suitable shutters).

Anyway, thanks, Kumar, you've given me something to think about.

 

[Kievmarc]

Maybe also the experties of @flavio81 can help with this thread

 

[B.S.Kumar]

Barrel lenses can be front mounted on shutters and used with large format cameras, where the bellows is used for focusing.
I make and sell adapters for Shanel and Copal 3 shutters: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...m-f-4-5-lens-shanel-5a-shutter-adapter.198194
Something similar for the Kiev might be possible, but wide angle lenses would be difficult, if not impossible.
You can use helicoids for the Pentax 67 or the Bronica S series cameras and adapt them to the Kiev. A body cap with an appropriate hole can be used as an adapter. However, since the digital back needs the shutter to be completely closed before and after the exposure, you'll need to figure out a way to do this.

Kumar