Kentmere Paper

[Kilgallb]

I have been waiting for my box of 16x20 Kentmere VC deluxe for months. B&H says they are waiting for a shipment from Ilford.

is there an issue with getting Ilford or Kentmere into the USA or Canada?

 

[Alan9940]

Freestyle has both glossy and lustre mostly in stock; a couple out of stock until early May.

 

[Pitotshock]

I tried to order some Kentmere FB directly from the Canadian distributor, Amplis, and had my order cancelled. Their stock was out of date and did not have an estimate of when they could get more in... Ilford stock was good, Kentmere, especially in fibre base, not available. I now see the FB is removed from their website. RC Kentmere shows in stock https://store.amplis.com/collection...mere-rc-vc-select-fine-lustre-16x20-50-sheets

 

[Kilgallb]

I tried to order some Kentmere FB directly from the Canadian distributor, Amplis, and had my order cancelled. Their stock was out of date and did not have an estimate of when they could get more in... Ilford stock was good, Kentmere, especially in fibre base, not available. I now see the FB is removed from their website. RC Kentmere shows in stock https://store.amplis.com/collection...mere-rc-vc-select-fine-lustre-16x20-50-sheets

Thanks for the advice. I never knew about this place and the price is good..

 

[R.Gould]

kentmere in FB has not been made by Harman sinse they bought out Kentmer a good few years ago now, so if anyone has Kentmere FB paper it must be way out of date, the only kentmere not made in tghe RC paper, I know I almost cried into my beer when Kentmere FB paper was no more, it had been my main stay for many years, one of the best range ot FB papers, beating Ilford hands down, which I suspect is why Harman stopped it,

 

[Don_ih]

I never knew about this place

It's an almost invisible retailer. It's a bit of a mystery how they can be the official Ilford distributor in Canada. The stock is buried in their website and disorganized.

one of the best range ot FB papers, beating Ilford hands down, which I suspect is why Harman stopped it

Kentmere FB definitely has its fans but it would be pretty weird for a parent company to outright stop one product from being manufactured to prop up another - they could just rebrand it Ilford.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I know I almost cried into my beer when Kentmere FB paper was no more, it had been my main stay for many years, one of the best range ot FB papers, beating Ilford hands down, which I suspect is why Harman stopped it,

As it happens, I've recently made a few prints on the Kentmere paper to use up old stocks. It still works well with a very pleasing dead-neutral image tone but I'm curious to find out in what way you found it superior to the ILFORD products?

 

[R.Gould]

As it happens, I've recently made a few prints on the Kentmere paper to use up old stocks. It still works well with a very pleasing dead-neutral image tone but I'm curious to find out in what way you found it superior to the ILFORD products?

The type of papers that Kentmere made, Bromide, their warmtone paper waslike nothing else, and the surface they used for it was almost like old leather, they made a range of special art papers, that lithed like nothing else, and when Harman rook them over they promised to continue with them or re make them, I used my last Kentmere last year,

 

[R.Gould]

It's an almost invisible retailer. It's a bit of a mystery how they can be the official Ilford distributor in Canada. The stock is buried in their website and disorganized.



Kentmere FB definitely has its fans but it would be pretty weird for a parent company to outright stop one product from being manufactured to prop up another - they could just rebrand it Ilford.

I believe Ilfpord di just that, their new MG5 I have tested against some original Kentmere RC paper and it is, pretty much the same as the original Kentmere pre the take over, I have the numbers for the old kentmere programed into my RH Analyser/pro, fro many years ago, when |I set out the programe the new ilford the contrast and offset I got was EXACTLY the same as the Kentmere contrast/offset I have for old Kentmere, the Harman Kentmere is different, they are so much alike that it can't be co incidence, it even tones as well as old Kentmere, which was the best RC paper for toning I have ever used, in over 50 years of darkroom, It was Kentmere that persuaded me that FB prints could be as good as FB, and the new Ilford is exactly the same, as good as FB, so I am again happy with RC prints, plus Kentmere papers were in so many ways better than anything Ilford made, and often outsold Ilford due to the range of papers they made, some pretty much exclusive, the nearest replacement for one of Kentmere's range is Art 300, but Kentmere made a range of art papers, some on triple weight paper,bromide papers, and the best WT paper around, plus paper that lithed like no other, and all gone now despite promises to bring them back, we are still waiting.

 

[MattKing]

The old Kentmere was manufactured at the Kentmere plant. After Harman bought Kentmere, they realized that due to environmental concerns they had to shut that plant down.
It made sense for Harman to continue merchandizing some Kentmere products as their lower cost line, aimed at the school market. So they moved production of those products to the "Ilford" plant.
That didn't happen with the FB paper.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

It made sense for Harman to continue merchandizing some Kentmere products as their lower cost line, aimed at the school market. So they moved production of those products to the "Ilford" plant.
That didn't happen with the FB paper.

I would have to double check but I think I may have some FB Kentmere paper with the 'Harman Technology' corporate info incorporated.

 

[MattKing]

I would have to double check but I think I may have some FB Kentmere paper with the 'Harman Technology' corporate info incorporated.

That may have been manufactured in the Kentmere facility, before it was shut down. It may also have been manufactured before the purchase of Kentmere and cut and packaged by Harman,

 

[Don_ih]

they realized that due to environmental concerns they had to shut that plant down

That would be spin. There is no actual reason a company would run two b&w photographic paper factories thus far into this century. They likely bought it specifically to shut down the plant and absorb its consumers.

Nothing has ever been shut down due to concern for the environment.

 

[MattKing]

That would be spin. There is no actual reason a company would run two b&w photographic paper factories thus far into this century. They likely bought it specifically to shut down the plant and absorb its consumers.

Nothing has ever been shut down due to concern for the environment.

I don't know that it was "concern", although that may have contributed.
It was non-compliance with environmental regulations, plus the associated costs of bringing it into compliance.
Kentmere made a lot of products that were quite different than the Ilford line - POP being the most unusual example. They also used significantly different technology. Most important to Harman, they had a strong position in the educational market.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

16 by 20? Wowsa... I'm so not surprised you got hosed. Want it fast? Go normal. 8x10 or 5x7.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I would have to double check but I think I may have some FB Kentmere paper with the 'Harman Technology' corporate info incorporated.

The FBVC and Bromide seem to have translated to M14 & seem to have been made up until about the time that MGFB Cooltone hit the market.

That would be spin. There is no actual reason a company would run two b&w photographic paper factories thus far into this century. They likely bought it specifically to shut down the plant and absorb its consumers.

Nothing has ever been shut down due to concern for the environment.

The story I heard was that Harman wanted to learn the emulsions on Kentmere's plant (which was supposedly fairly modern), then translate them to Ilford's plant over a few months - some of Kentmere's specialty products were quite desirable to Ilford, especially for lithability etc (there were other Kentmere products aimed at the display market that Harman also seemed to have been keen to acquire too). The first plant inspection after acquisition apparently revealed unsafe practices/ machines (open reaction vessels and unshielded machinery parts/ drives in darkroom environments from what I recall) that you could get away with as a tiny minimally staffed company, but not a bigger one that makes a big deal out of its safety record - and things like the POP coating were pretty hazardous, with high temperatures and excess silver nitrate splashing around (I understand that it was always scheduled immediately before a full plant shutdown & cleaning). It seems to have been quite easy to translate FBVC and Bromide to Ilford, but not economically (environmentally?) viable to make Kentona etc. Environmental concerns are what have driven a number of changes in emulsions over the decades - removing Cd in the 1970s & lead salts later (quite possibly what killed off a number of warmtone papers as the R&D to make the same emulsion structure by new methods would have been excessively costly).

 

[cmacd123]

Thanks for the advice. I never knew about this place and the price is good..

Amplis Photo has been a wholesale distributor to the Camera Stores in Canada for many many years. A few years ago, a retail group came up with the idea of listing Ilford Products and having Amplis drop ship. that outfit closed down as they listed items that were not in stock, and were shipped after the next monthly order. I guess Amplis saw the value of selling direct as their are many places in Canada without a direct photo dealer, and one of the bigger chains - Henry's seems to not want to stock Film.

I believe that if you local dealer has Ilford they may be able to provide it cheaper than Amplis. But it is a good fall back.

 

[Don_ih]

Environmental concerns are what have driven a number of changes in emulsions over the decades

Generally not the environmental concerns of the manufacturers, but through the banning of the material being used. Ilford has changed film and paper emulsions several times for that reason (eg., going from FP4 to FP4+).
Odd to buy a factory without seeing it in operation or looking through it to see the state of things.

Henry's seems to not want to stock Film

Henry's, even just 10 years ago, had a nice amount of film and paper in-store. Then, quite suddenly, that was all gone. I have ordered stuff through their website. They are in the perfect position to carry within Canada the same wide range of stock B&H or Freesytle do and push it as niche or special but seem to want no part of it. Their film and paper are buried in their website. I'm not sure how much longer they can stay in business now that the big wave of digital buyers has subsided - there never seems to be anyone at the one I regularly drive past.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Generally not the environmental concerns of the manufacturers, but through the banning of the material being used. Ilford has changed film and paper emulsions several times for that reason (eg., going from FP4 to FP4+).
Odd to buy a factory without seeing it in operation or looking through it to see the state of things.

FP4 to FP4+ was a complete reformulation from using ammonium salts to sodium salts in order to upgrade the hardener - nothing environmental related.

Furthermore, the move away from certain heavy metal salts etc seems to have been as much to do with employee safety (ie not poisoning highly valuable & knowledgeable researchers/ skilled production staff) as anything else. And another example: there are articles from the mid 1940s where senior Kodak researchers quite pointedly state that they'd prefer end users to not be casually playing around with PPD etc [and Kodak's research into making PPD safer led up to CD-3, CD-4 etc] - but it took until the late 2000s to get unsubstituted PPD out of over-the-counter products like hair dye etc. Kodak, Ilford etc liked to be seen as quite strongly interested in the health & welfare of their staff.

 

[Don_ih]

ammonium salts to sodium salts in order to upgrade the hardener

So.... why did they need to change the hardener? As in, what would be the motivation to invest in the reworking of an emulsion to make it behave exactly like the previous iteration? It's really just a question, not a challenge to anyone's belief.

Safety and the potential for poisoning are the reasons so many materials have become problematic for manufacturers in Europe and North America, by being subject to regulations. No such problem in China - so that's where all the fun electronics come from.

 

[Lachlan Young]

So.... why did they need to change the hardener? As in, what would be the motivation to invest in the reworking of an emulsion to make it behave exactly like the previous iteration? It's really just a question, not a challenge to anyone's belief.

The C-41 type of hardening makes the emulsions massively more (realistically, nearly totally) resilient to damage like reticulation from poor processing temperature control & very difficult to accidentally scratch (for example, allowing elimination of paper interleaving on sheet films). There may have also been a desire to move the actual emulsion making step to more tightly controlled systems for better emulsion characterisation control & consistency that used newer technology and knowledge to get a similar grain structure in a more cohesive manner. Having scanned plenty of FP4 and FP4+ on high end kit, there are seemingly slight but noticeable differences - mainly in the quality of the granularity & overall sharpness of the emulsion - enough to make me question the compatibility with even baseline quality standards of the rest of someone's imaging chain if they claim 'no difference'.

 

[cmacd123]

FP4 to FP4+ was a complete reformulation from using ammonium salts to sodium salts in order to upgrade the hardener - nothing environmental related.

when Simon Galley was here, I believe he said that the Plus versions were based on using the higher control available on their new automated systems rather then any major difference in the chemistry of the film. I may be mis-rembering, and unfortunately it does not seem possible to search for Simon's posts.

 

[MattKing]

unfortunately it does not seem possible to search for Simon's posts.

It is possible, using the Advanced Search function and the screen name Simon R Galley
The capitalization and the lack of a period after the R are critical.

 

[Lachlan Young]

when Simon Galley was here, I believe he said that the Plus versions were based on using the higher control available on their new automated systems rather then any major difference in the chemistry of the film. I may be mis-rembering, and unfortunately it does not seem possible to search for Simon's posts.

That's also a rather clever way of saying that the end product was very similar, not that the method to make it was. In other words, the number of emulsions, the number of layers, the type of grain structure, the spectral sensitisation, the mol% iodide & placement thereof may have been near identical, but the chemical stages to get there could be radically different.

 

[cmacd123]

yes, Thank you Matt. that was the magic needed to find the post.
the item was as I Half remembered it, https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fp4-and-fp4.100401/#post-1330429 so yes, the half I remembered wrong is that their may be indeed some chemical differences. BUT not so much of a difference as to create a FP5 and HP6.