KEH low inventory

[Ken Nadvornick]

But you knew in advance what you wanted to see, right? Screw mount Leica bodies. And you drilled down from there. That's not browsing. That's searching. And no one is saying that searching is overly broken in the new version. Produces some debatable results on occasion. But not really broken, and probably better than it was previously.

Browsing is when you don't know what it is you are looking for. You have no specific item in mind. You just want to see what they have. It's window shopping. If you buy something, it's an impulse purchase. Probably something that's been in the back of your mind for a long while, and percolated to the forefront only after you unexpectedly found one while grazing. Yes, expensive items can also fall into that category.

That's the gist of many of the complaints here. Explicit searching and implicit browsing are two completely different ways of presenting and thus interfacing with the available data. The new UI strongly favors query searching at the expense of random browsing.

Query searching, as your example confirms, is an exclusionary process. You are trying to weed out the stuff you can't have in order to distill the results down to the set of things you can have. Random browsing is an inclusionary process. You are trying to maximize the stuff you can see in order to determine if anything in those larger results might contain something you can have.

Due in part to their strong public refusals thus far to entertain the wishes of the browsers, I have to assume that KEH has done their marketing demographic homework and have determined that they will pick up more new eager searchers than they will lose dissatisfied browsers.

My position is that those two groups are not mutually exclusive of one another. That there is no reason that with careful interface design they cannot have the best of both worlds. Only time will tell...

Ken

 

[removed account4]

But... but... the menus are on the left side of the screen.

Say I want to check out all the old screw-mount Leica bodies they have in stock....

Click "shop by brand" at the top.
Click "Leica" when the bar of brand logos pops up.
Now on the left edge, click "bodies"
If you want to refine that, on the left edge under "mount type", click "M39-Leica screw"

Bam. There's everything they have that fits that category.

I now click "Price (Low to High)" on the drop down "Sort By" menu in the top right and determine that everything I can afford is broken, and leave with a heavy sigh to come back and browse another day.

hi tamara

i couldn't agree more !
can't please everyone ...

in the past if the website was wonky
i called the phone number and staff there
was more than willing to answer questions
find items for me (that i couldn't find) and help me buy something ...

been buying there since the early/mid 1990s, they have been
reliable every time i bought from them ... never a problem.
first thing i bought might have been a 90mm super angulon or a 135 or wide pentax lens
last thing was a nikon pc lens ... and a hanful of things in-between. i'm not one to browse or wander
aimlessly and buy something that catches my eye, i'd rather know what i want and not be distracted.

regarding the OP's comment on low inventory ... sometimes inventory is low ... sometimes it is not ?
i am guessing the used market fluctuates like anything else ...

YMMV

 

[rbultman]

But you knew in advance what you wanted to see, right? Screw mount Leica bodies. And you drilled down from there. That's not browsing. That's searching. And no one is saying that searching is overly broken in the new version. Produces some debatable results on occasion. But not really broken, and probably better than it was previously.

Browsing is when you don't know what it is you are looking for. You have no specific item in mind. You just want to see what they have.

I think this is illusory. You are say that browsing means looking without making some sort of selection or search prior to looking while looking for things on KEH (or other on-line stores) means that you must make a selection first. I contend that even when browsing you must make a selection.

If you browse in a store, you must first select an aisle to go down. You might choose that aisle randomly but once you start down that aisle you have made a decision. You really can't hop between aisles without first exiting an aisle and selecting another. It's just not possible to completely and randomly browse a store due to the physical layout or some ridiculous attempt using blinders or something. You can go through each aisle in turn, but you are being presented with the products in whatever categories the store owner saw fit to organize them.

If you browse a catalog, you could certainly go to some random spot and then go to some other random spot, bouncing around from page to page and subject to subject. If you start at page 1 and progress through the catalog, the order of items displayed has been chosen by the person responsible for the layout of the catalog. You are choosing to see things in the order that someone else has chosen for you. If you thumb or fan through it, you are going to see the major categories fly past. Maybe something will interest you and you stop. But, you are still looking through items which have been categorized in a particular order.

I don't think I have ever gone into a store or web site without first having some inkling of what I might want. If I do not, I quickly start downselecting as soon as I enter the store or web site.

People are really down on the KEH web site. I liked the old web site because I was used to it. I don't like the new web site because I think it is ugly, but I now know how to use it. I can browse for stuff that I might want without knowing ahead of time what I am looking for and I can quickly find things when I know what I want ahead of time.

IMO, the KEH website is much better than the Freestyle Photo web site. I can easily find film on FS, but forget easily finding darkroom supplies when you are not quite sure what you are looking for.

B&H beats both hands down.

 

[gzinsel]

but talking about photo web sites that are good? well. . . . I think Macodirect and photoimpex are good,( I do not like freestyle nor do I like fomaphoto). But they do not deal with film not GEAR!! I think finding gear is difficult in general. I do not especially care for B&H. I still think the auction site is best.

 

[gzinsel]

It should read " but they do not deal with gear , not film. Sorry for the typo

 

[gzinsel]

scrap it all, I've had to much to drink!!!

 

[rbultman]

I haven't checked out Maco or Photoimpex, but B&H deals in gear, including used. A quick check on Freestyle shows that they sell Holga. OK, used gear might not be their forte, but my opinions regarding browsing and searching stand.

 

[MattKing]

scrap it all, I've had to much to drink!!!

Then you definitely should stay away from KEH's website - at least until the morning after

 

[Truzi]

It's a one-size-fits-all template-based site. The customization is slightly better than some (as far as making it look unique), but the function is completely generic and found on many run-of-the-mill sites. This is not the first site that has driven me away by similar decisions (not necessarily photo-related sites), and when this happens I typically find at least two acceptable alternatives that I would not have even looked for had things not devolved. I am not always in search of the Bigger Better Deal, either. When I find a good store, I remain loyal so long as no major issues arise.

I act the same with brick-and-mortar stores (like grocery stores, department stores, etc.) that can't seem to stock items in the same spots from month to month; instead moving them around. If I want some potato chips, I go down that isle. If I learn what I wanted is somewhere else, I'm done. (In the example I am drawing from, several kinds of chips were removed from the chip isle (while other items of the same brand remained) and relocated near the soft-drinks isle (and the next month by the paper goods). This happens often and with many things, so I rarely shop there anymore.)
I will not wander the store, passing by (and looking at) things I am not interested in as I search for what I came for. It will not make me spend more money, it will just make me go someplace more reliable to spend the same money. (Well, actually less money, as the alternates I choose generally have better value in the big picture - hey, if I'm going through "change," I might as well put in the effort to make it count. Change can be good.)

I suggest we revisit this issue in, say, three years. That ought to do it.

My view on KEH is now, unfortunately, the cliché "fool me twice..."

 

[Theo Sulphate]

But... but... the menus are on the left side of the screen.

Heh. I was contrasting the statically placed links the old site had versus the drop-down menus of the new.

Anyway, I think what we see here are people's preferences for doing things. Like vi versus emacs, written descriptions versus those with diagrams, analog photography versus digital. Some prefer one much more than the other.

I do have their very last printed catalog, though

 

[Roger Cole]

It's not just that kind of browsing versus searching. It's been a while since I looked but I recall even SEARCHING and going through many frustrating clicks and dead ends to sorta find what I was looking for.

And the bottom line is that I don't really think I, or anyone, should have to or even feel inclined to explain or justify why we prefer one site over another, except maybe to tell the business how to make it more like we want, and in that case it seems clear that KEH isn't interested in making it what we want, just what they want to offer.

I loved the old one and I hate the new one. My time, my money, end of argument really. I would still buy from them if looking for a specific item, but they'd now be the last rather than first place I'd probably check.

 

[Trail Images]

That said with the new website I too do not buy from them as much as I used to. Stupidest move they ever made. Hope they fired whoever designed it.

I'm sure they may struggle with their choice now and the move to new platform as well. I'd say the circumstances that KEH has been through with the web site upgrade is very disheartening to say the lest. I always found the organization to be VERY solid over the years.
My thoughts on the statement comes from having lived through a similar upgrade with a renowned software group years ago that we never recovered from and cost our organization many jobs. Those jobs lost were not the software folks involved or decision makers who chose the dead end route. It was the folks in the ranks who fell to the unemployment world as a result of wrong decisions.

 

[rbultman]

vi

+1

 

[Curt]

Hate to say it after all these years, but I don't buy from them anymore. The website (as always) is awful, and the new owners will not fix it. Plus, their prices have gone sky high! You can forget about getting a great deal on a Bgn item now. Sigh. Things change.

I needn't read any further as this is my answer too. When the website changed and comparing items became impossible I dropped them as a source.

 

[Curt]

New owners as in the web hosting or new owners of the company?

Either way, yes, I also feel their glory days are behind them which is really too bad. Thankfully I have pretty much all the gear I need so maybe the loss to me personally is not so bad.

Speaking of "glory days", anyone remember "Del's Camera" based in Santa Barbara California? They took out ads in Shutterbug and had about the most drool worthy list of used Nikon ( and other ) gear one could possibly imagine, aptly coined "Your Nikon Candy Store".

I used to go in person and see the massive coffee table of lenses, super rare items like the 13mm 5.6, 6mm 2.8 and 300mm 2.0. It's been many years since he closed shop, now those were the days!

Yes I remember, when I lived in Santa Barbara I went there often.

 

[Roger Cole]

I actually hadn't been to the KEH website in some months since I disliked the new site so much. So I went and checked it out and looked for something I may be in the market for soon. This time I found it easily. It may be that when they went to the new site it not only sucked but was originally broken as well. I still like the old one better, but what's there now is not as bad as the "new site" I remember.

 

[analoguey]

If keh redesigned their ' website' only for the mobile, instead of mashing up an alternate mobile only site or app... Sums up everything on why they should've done " due diligence " on their 're-design'.
WordPress made the mobile friendly webpage nearly a decade ago - without screwing up the desktop page!

Anyhow, search was crappy on the old site but it wasn't a website issue as much as input issue. And backend issue. Churning out the useful UI is a ridiculous response.
/Not a buyer.

 

[Rudeofus]

Let's not forget that interest in photographic equipment has fallen generally, affecting digital at least as much as analog equipment. We have no idea in which shape KEH is financially and how much they were able to spend on their new web page. They may have had to ditch their old technology for security/maintenance/support reasons, switched to a new platform that was sold to them as "has better search and supports responsive design", and with their little budget that's all they could afford.

The decline in analog equipment offerings seems to affect more stores than KEH, though. FFordes' offerings have much declined as well (used to have three pages of RZ67 lens offerings, including many specialty lenses, now it's barely one page with mostly so so lenses), and we don't know whether that's because of higher demand, or whether this kind of equipment has such low turnover that dealers reject fresh inventory (there was a comment in this thread along those lines).

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

I think people got it right: the transition to digital was done a few years ago so all the switching pros dumping their old analog gear on the market has passed. That was likely a lot of inventory source. And now it seems many estates selling off the deceased old man's collection of analog gear may be gone too. Only good thing means the price of those of us who amassed gear over the last ten years when we could not ignore such wonderful bargains might see price increases due to scarcity....assuming demand remains or increases that is...

 

[Sirius Glass]

It is the organization of the site that brings rise to the complaints.

Most of us know what camera (note the singular) we are interested in - we want a page that lists and offers all the options available to us for that camera.

The old site offered that, the new site requires us to first decide on what option we want, and then helps us choose which version of that option (i.e. for which camera) we should buy.

Its like a store that keeps all the lenses together, irrespective of mounts, and all the viewfinders together, irrespective of for which camera, and all the ....

I would guess that it would be easy to organize the new site in a way similar to the old.

I agree. I liked the old website better and it is harder to find what I want with the newer version.

 

[Naples]

Lots of kvetching here about the KEH website, but no specifics (at least not in the posts I've read). I bought through their website several months ago and had no problem whatsoever.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

Lots of kvetching here about the KEH website, but no specifics (at least not in the posts I've read). I bought through their website several months ago and had no problem whatsoever.

??? Loads and loads of very specific detail has been discussed on APUG, most very valid.

 

[Naples]

??? Loads and loads of very specific detail has been discussed on APUG, most very valid.

Well, below are all the comments from the first two pages of this thread addressing the new KEH website. I don't see the specifics. They must appear later in the thread?

- “new and not improved website”

- “The website is awful”

- “with the new website I too do not buy from them as much as I used to. Stupidest move they ever made. Hope they fired whoever designed it.”

- “Could not agree more.”

- “Me too…”

- “I agree... the new website sucks bilge water.”

- “Yeah, the new website is super-frustrating.”

 

[TenSpeed]

I cant ever find shit on the website

i rather shop on ebay and take my chances

 

[Doc W]

I never have any trouble on KEH. It is a bit screwy, I suppose, but I always find what I want. The live help is great too. I have bought from them in the past and I just bought a RB67 Pro SD body. Good price, good condition. They even shipped it to me the way I wanted.