KEH low inventory
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You would think that with a smaller inventory and a new web site design they could post an image of everything they are selling, or at least give a detailed description. I find it frustrating to browse their site and then have to "Google" to figure out exactly what they are selling.
I emailed KEH earlier today and asked if they planned to go back to the old web design as the new design was awful, and that I'm not the only one who thinks so. Here's the reply I received:
"We will not be returning to the old website design. Ironically, we had many complaints that the old sight was terrible at searching (which was true) so we designed a website that is phenomenal at search and refine (which it is!) and now people want the old menu system back. Change is always difficult! The new site is also much better for use with mobile devices. We are planning on launching a newly designed website very soon. In the meantime I would encourage you to type in what you are looking for in the search bar, then refine the results by clicking on the boxes on the left side, that works great! (though most often what you asked for will be the very first item listed in the results). You can also shop by brand, category, format etc., and selections are in the drop down menu under the “purchase” heading.
Thank you for your feedback, we appreciate your interest in KEH camera and hope to earn your business!"
"We will not be returning to the old website design. Ironically, we had many complaints that the old sight was terrible at searching (which was true) so we designed a website that is phenomenal at search and refine (which it is!) and now people want the old menu system back. Change is always difficult! The new site is also much better for use with mobile devices. We are planning on launching a newly designed website very soon. In the meantime I would encourage you to type in what you are looking for in the search bar, then refine the results by clicking on the boxes on the left side, that works great! (though most often what you asked for will be the very first item listed in the results). You can also shop by brand, category, format etc., and selections are in the drop down menu under the “purchase” heading.
Thank you for your feedback, we appreciate your interest in KEH camera and hope to earn your business!"
After learning how to use it, I much prefer the new website 
The decline in stock has been happening for quite a while - when I first bought my Bronica, they had tons of them, all the lenses and so on. About 18 months ago is when I really started noticing the drop off on Bronica gear specifically (I think I even posted here about it). This was before the new Website launch.
The decline in stock has been happening for quite a while - when I first bought my Bronica, they had tons of them, all the lenses and so on. About 18 months ago is when I really started noticing the drop off on Bronica gear specifically (I think I even posted here about it). This was before the new Website launch.
Admitting you've made a colossal mistake is also difficult.
If the response here is typical, most people don't like the change.
With the old site, I used to just browse around with no particular camera, lens, or format in mind. It was organized very well for that type of activity. If I were interested in a particular camera or lens, it was always easy to find. I never needed to use their search tool, but apparently those that did search didn't like it.
My answer to KEH is "why not both?". If it's working fine for 80% of the people, fix the part that's broken to make the other 20% happy. Don't toss the whole thing away so that now 20% are happy and the other 80% have lost something nice that they had before.
If I like my KEH website, I want to keep my KEH website.
I can probably count on one hand the number of times I used the search function on the original site. There was no need. Everything was right there in front of your eyes. Now everything is hidden behind multi-level searches that no one wants to hassle.*
I used to loiter heavily at KEH. The original layout was excellent for that. Usually in the evenings after a long day I would sit down and graze through the Nikon manual focus listings (once bought an F2 body), lust after the Mamiya 7IIs, and check out the inventory and prices for the Rolleiflex and Mamiya TLRs. Same for the darkroom listings and large format equipment.
Now I never go there. You have to already be searching for something specific for the search-centric design to be useful. Looking for a specific item was always just the excuse to begin random browsing. Now random browsing is too difficult. So I don't.
The telling example for me is that Mamiya TLR system I mentioned earlier. For years I followed the KEH listings, creating my wish lists directly from their product listings as I endlessly browsed. But when the time finally arrived to pull the trigger, those lists were serviced by someone else because I didn't want to hassle the new website. A couple thousand dollars that should have gone to KEH went elsewhere.
The red flag should be the acknowledgement in the KEH response to Richard that their users first asked for improvements to the original website, then when presented with the new site immediately began asking to go back to the old one.
When I was in college I had a senior geology professor who used walk around looking over our shoulders during his exams. Sometimes he would stop, furrow his brow, and whisper in an exasperated gravelly voice "F!" followed by "The data in that problem is trying to tell you something, but you're not listening...", and out would come the erasers.
Ken
* Note to you KEH guys and gals reading along. Query searching in general is bad because of the implicit assumption that the query is always perfectly correct. And it may not be. That leaves the user uneasily wondering if you really don't have what they are looking for, or if their search just missed it. So the user ends up needing to search several times with adjusted criteria before ending up only feeling somewhat sure that the repeated negative outcome is truly valid.
On the other hand, with your previous design everything was explicitly listed. If one was looking for manual focus Nikkor 24mm lenses, one knew right where to go. Got there quickly and cleanly. And once there could rest assured that the four or five 24mm lenses they found were, in fact, the only ones to be found. No frustrating multiple searches and uneasy feelings that something was missed.
It's the difference in UI design between implicit and explicit presentation of data. The former requires valid preconditions to work. The latter requires only eyes.
I used to loiter heavily at KEH. The original layout was excellent for that. Usually in the evenings after a long day I would sit down and graze through the Nikon manual focus listings (once bought an F2 body), lust after the Mamiya 7IIs, and check out the inventory and prices for the Rolleiflex and Mamiya TLRs. Same for the darkroom listings and large format equipment.
Now I never go there. You have to already be searching for something specific for the search-centric design to be useful. Looking for a specific item was always just the excuse to begin random browsing. Now random browsing is too difficult. So I don't.
The telling example for me is that Mamiya TLR system I mentioned earlier. For years I followed the KEH listings, creating my wish lists directly from their product listings as I endlessly browsed. But when the time finally arrived to pull the trigger, those lists were serviced by someone else because I didn't want to hassle the new website. A couple thousand dollars that should have gone to KEH went elsewhere.
The red flag should be the acknowledgement in the KEH response to Richard that their users first asked for improvements to the original website, then when presented with the new site immediately began asking to go back to the old one.
When I was in college I had a senior geology professor who used walk around looking over our shoulders during his exams. Sometimes he would stop, furrow his brow, and whisper in an exasperated gravelly voice "F!" followed by "The data in that problem is trying to tell you something, but you're not listening...", and out would come the erasers.
Ken
* Note to you KEH guys and gals reading along. Query searching in general is bad because of the implicit assumption that the query is always perfectly correct. And it may not be. That leaves the user uneasily wondering if you really don't have what they are looking for, or if their search just missed it. So the user ends up needing to search several times with adjusted criteria before ending up only feeling somewhat sure that the repeated negative outcome is truly valid.
On the other hand, with your previous design everything was explicitly listed. If one was looking for manual focus Nikkor 24mm lenses, one knew right where to go. Got there quickly and cleanly. And once there could rest assured that the four or five 24mm lenses they found were, in fact, the only ones to be found. No frustrating multiple searches and uneasy feelings that something was missed.
It's the difference in UI design between implicit and explicit presentation of data. The former requires valid preconditions to work. The latter requires only eyes.
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Its not really that hard! Lets say I want to search for all the Bronica gear.
From the Home page, I hover over Purchase, which displays a menu and then I click on "Shop By Brand"
From the resultant page I click on "Bronica"
That's it, I have all the Bronica gear in front of me! On the left, I can filter to what specific gear I want to look at. I want to look at SQ lenses, I select "Fixed Focal Lenght......" in sub category and "Bronica SQ" in Mount Type.
Its not that hard!
From the Home page, I hover over Purchase, which displays a menu and then I click on "Shop By Brand"
From the resultant page I click on "Bronica"
That's it, I have all the Bronica gear in front of me! On the left, I can filter to what specific gear I want to look at. I want to look at SQ lenses, I select "Fixed Focal Lenght......" in sub category and "Bronica SQ" in Mount Type.
Its not that hard!
MattKing
Moderator
The new KEH site is okay for lenses and bodies, but lousy for accessories.
As an example, try searching for a focus screen for a Mamiya 645 Pro.
As an example, try searching for a focus screen for a Mamiya 645 Pro.
From the KEH landing page, 3 clicks and I found them. In order
Shop By Brand => Mamiya => select "Screens" from subcategory menu
13 items returned. Yes, they are not classified by mount, but a quick glance at the descriptions found this one: Dead Link Removed
Like I said, its not really hard to navigate around the new site.
No one said it was hard it's just not the same flow of use, as Ken above very adequately outlined. I find the new method sterile and not friendly to use at all or scroll through. Old one was perfect.
Me too. And ironically, KEH has a very active eBay "store" so you may find it there easier anyway.
And I really wish they'd stop replying to people complaining about the site by saying "no, you're wrong, it's much better now." I got a similar reply back when they changed it. I know what I like, and the new site ain't it. Please stop talking down to me like I'm some moron too stupid to navigate your obviously superior site. I'm not, and it isn't.
No, the searching aspect is not hard -- but the site's organization no longer provides the much better, enjoyable, and more satisfying experience we used to have and still want.
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I feel the new site's search is phenomenally bad, often giving results not even related to search terms - it mixed in Nikon items when I searched for Bronica! It certainly is easy to use, but not to get effective and meaningful results. Also, if this new site is so wonderful, it is odd they would be working on a redesign so soon - it sounds contradictory. I agree with Ken, I did not have to search on the old site. I can't imagine people in the market for their wares are so random in their wants that they would require a search, given the old site's competent indexing.
Their new site pushed me away, and I've not looked back. It takes far more work/time to get the same results as the old site; emphasizing form over function does not work for me. I don't shop online to look at slick sites - I do it to achieve a goal. If the new design was a least as functional as the old I would not have left. I don't think they designed it themselves, though. Rather, it has all the indications that they were sold a package altered for their type of business.
AFAIKKEH has stopped buying film and darkroom equipment,at least that is what we were told whrn they bought fromour club.
After learning how to use it, I much prefer the new website
The decline in stock has been happening for quite a while - when I first bought my Bronica, they had tons of them, all the lenses and so on. About 18 months ago is when I really started noticing the drop off on Bronica gear specifically (I think I even posted here about it). This was before the new Website launch.
Maybe because of this?
(it's why I bought my Bronica from KEH) http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/10/bargain-medium-format.html
OP
OP
I agree, on the old site I would click on "medium format" and it would take me to all the MF gear by system. So me being curious I would go price together a Pentax 645 system or a Mamiya 7 system just cause I could and it was fun to "dream" so to speak. Problem with me was many of those "dreams" turned into purchases, exactly what KEH should want! As stated before the new site is pretty much meant for those who are seeking something specific, and they go there and search for it. It certainly has helped those of us with G.A.S! I haven't bought anything from KEH in a few years!!!
OP
OP
I would be very interested to know if this is true.
No doubt the new site flow works mechanically. But that's only a minimal expectation in User Interface design. More important is for the design to both work mechanically and provide a pleasant user experience. An experience so pleasant that it hooks the visitor into wanting to return again and again, even when they're not searching for a specific item.
Think of the automotive driving experience. Any vehicle in working condition can supply one with four wheels and motion. That's a minimal expectation. But the differences between driving a Honda, a Ferrari, a classic '65 Mustang, and a cement truck could not be more diverse.
If Ralph is correct and a decision has been taken to back away from film camera sales (to go digital, so to speak), that could explain a lot. Their user experience may now be targeted to a younger demographic accustomed to experiencing flashier online presentations of data viewed on significantly smaller screens. Meaning bigger pictures, but less visible content on each rendered page.
Ken
Younger people shoot film as well - as a matter of fact, I'd nearly go as far to say that its the hipsters who have driven the resurgence in film over the last few years......
I feel sorry for companies that want to move with the times. The previous KEH website was 20 years out of date - period. More then likely, they had other pressing needs to re-code certain aspects as well, from a tech point of view. So, they went with a fresh new look, which a lot of companies do, given the same circumstances.
I work for a company that provides Internet Banking Solutions. Recently, we re-wrote and redesigned our flagship product. In the end, we came up with a product that works well and takes advantage of all the new technology that is available. It gives a great user experience that scales well from a smart phone through to a Ultra HD monitor. After we went live with the product with our pilot customer, they did a user survey. Based on the results of the user survey, they asked for a lot of the old look and functionality to be restored. As both us and the customer had invested a lot of time and money into this project, the proverbial hit the fan......but, before any rash decisions were made, the results of the survey were analysed more indepth by our management. It appears that while a majority of respondents to the survey didn't like the new feel, less than a fraction of a percent of the registered users had actually responded. Keep that in mind, that while there are 10 or 20 people whining that its all turned to shit, there are probably 1000's of people who are either indifferent or happy with what they see.......
PS - no, the changes were not reversed.
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