Kalogen eco rethink??

[ruilourosa]

Could hidroquinone be successfully substituted by ascorbic acid in kalogen?

 

[relistan]

Looks feasible from the formula I found. Caveats: it will take a reasonable amount of experimenting, ascorbic acid is not a drop in for hydroquinone in either chemical behavior or resulting look. Don't expect to just leave the rest unchanged, swap the HQ for ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, and get the right result. It's not clear to me if the BZT will be the right amount, for example. Fun experiment if you are up for it though.

 

[ruilourosa]

I am worried about the longevity.
Phenolates created on the original formula are responsable for the long shelf life...

 

[relistan]

I am worried about the longevity.
Phenolates created on the original formula are responsable for the long shelf life...

If it's the shelf life you are after and not the results, then a water-based ascorbic acid mixture is probably not a great starting point.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Try Gainer's Metolal or Gerry's Caustic Metol developer.

 

[ruilourosa]

Try Gainer's Metolal or Gerry's Caustic Metol developer.

Could you provide a reliable source fórmula?

Thanks!

Rui Lourosa

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Could you provide a reliable source fórmula?

I know about Gainers formula, but have seen Gerry’s caustic metal formula. I’m curious also?

Metolal: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/rodinal-like-developer-from-metol.25877/
Metol-Caustic: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/catechol-and-superadditivity.129599/page-2#post-1761876

 

[John Wiegerink]

Try Gainer's Metolal or Gerry's Caustic Metol developer.

I know about Gainers formula, but have seen Gerry’s caustic metal formula. I’m curious also? JohnW

 

[ruilourosa]

What about a staining concentrated developer substituting hidroquinone for catechol on kalogen...

Not eco but ...

 

[mohmad khatab]

4 aminophenol


with some madness

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

What about a staining concentrated developer substituting hidroquinone for catechol on kalogen...

Not eco but ...

Why not simply use Pyrocat-M?

 

[ruilourosa]

You are right! But Pytocat m does include ascorbate? O just checked my darkroom cookbook and its does...

Im just wandering about this phenolate creation to improve shelf life through high ph...

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Im just wandering about this phenolate creation to improve shelf life through high ph...

You need to ask if Ascorbic acid is a phenol to form phenolates.

 

[mohmad khatab]

You need to ask if Ascorbic acid is a phenol to form phenolates.

And what about 4 aminophenol Can it fulfill the purpose and requirement?

 

[ruilourosa]

It does... But its done: Rodinal

 

[Alan Johnson]

I believe the key factor is the rate of oxidation of ascorbate to dehydroascorbate vs the rate of oxidation of hydroquinone to monosulfonate.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kalogen-formula.103711/
All that is known is that Kalogen keeps well in full sealed containers and ascorbates have a reputation for more rapid oxidation in presence of air.
These are not strictly comparable situations. Nobody has run a closer comparison.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I believe the key factor is the rate of oxidation of ascorbate to dehydroascorbate vs the rate of oxidation of hydroquinone to monosulfonate.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kalogen-formula.103711/
All that is known is that Kalogen keeps well in full sealed containers and ascorbates have a reputation for more rapid oxidation in presence of air.
These are not strictly comparable situations. Nobody has run a closer comparison.

I have a half full glass bottle of Kalogen that is at least two years old and will have to try it when I get back home in a week. I mixed it according to Gerry's recipe. I’ll post my findings here. JohnW

 

[mohmad khatab]

These are not strictly comparable situations. Nobody has run a closer comparison.

Someday I'm going to do that comparison and that experiment // Why not

I have a half full glass bottle of Kalogen that is at least two years old and will have to try it when I get back home in a week. I mixed it according to Gerry's recipe. I’ll post my findings here. JohnW

We wish you all the best, dear colleague

 

[mohmad khatab]

It does... But its done: Rodinal

4 aminophenol This is an item available to use for any formula, you can use it as you like with any formula as you like, nothing will stop you,

 

[ruilourosa]

4 aminophenol This is an item available to use for any formula, you can use it as you like with any formula as you like, nothing will stop you,

I understand that, but metol is much more available and cheaper...

 

[ruilourosa]

I will make some experiments too... And post feedback!

Any feedback regarding kalogen grain and sharpness from users? My experimentation is shorts by now.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I will make some experiments too... And post feedback!

Any feedback regarding kalogen grain and sharpness from users? My experimentation is shorts by now.

I found both grain and sharpness to be on the good side. It was one of the reasons I choose it to test some cameras I was planning to sell. I usually don’t keep the negatives from those test, but I might have. I’ll check when I get home next week. JohnW

 

[mohmad khatab]

I found both grain and sharpness to be on the good side. It was one of the reasons I choose it to test some cameras I was planning to sell. I usually don’t keep the negatives from those test, but I might have. I’ll check when I get home next week. JohnW

+1

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

If want to go eco, you can consider using D-23 dilution 1:10 spiked with about 0.5g Sodium Hydroxide per litre of the working solution. It is an acutance developer that gives crisp grain. Something like Metolal and Metol-Caustic but without having to mix a new concentrate.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Well, I finally made it home and did test the half bottle of Kalogen I have. I had it in an amber bottle with a stopper and it was less than have full. it was stored in a cabinet a room temperature with no other special care. The date I mixed this batch was Feb. 10, 2016 and when I poured it it had a very slight tea color. I developed some 35mm Delta dated 2018 using the Kalogen 1+49 for 13min @ 68F. The negatives came out way over developed and I should have went for the 1+99 mix instead. On the light box grain was very well behaved for over development. I don't have my scanner here anymore, but from this I'd say Kalogen would be my choice over Rodinal for my style photos. I'm going to be making a new fresh batch and taking care of it properly after this test. Here is a link from Gerry's post that I got all my info from:

Gerrry's recipe for Kalogen


I have used the following developer almost exclusively for the past few years. The keeping properties are remarkable. I have one un-opened bottle that is over 7 years old and shows no signs of oxidation. Even an opened bottle will keep for months. The concentrate contains the phenolates of both Metol and hydroquinone and in this respect is similar to Rodinal in concept.

Kalogen*

Distilled water (50°C) ……………………………………………… 750 ml
Metol …………………………………………………………………………………………… 12.5 g
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ………………………………………………… 150 g
Potassium bromide …………………………………………………………… 7.5 g
Benzotriazole, 1% …………………………………………………………… 50.0 ml
Hydroquinone ………………………………………………………………………… 45.0 g
Sodium hydroxide …………………………………………………………… 22.5 g
Distilled water to make …………………………………………… 1.0 l

Method of Preparation

Weight out the Metol and sodium sulfite. Dissolve a pinch of the sulfite in the water before adding the Metol. When the Metol is dissolved add the rest of the sodium sulfite and the other ingredients in the ordergiven. A precipitate will form with the addition of the hydroquinone. This is to be expected and it will dissolve with the addition of the sodium hydroxide. Transfer the solution to a 1 liter glass bottle, stopper and allow it to stand for
4 to 5 days. During this time a small amount of impurities will precipitate out and the solution will become lighter in color. Filter the solution and transfer it to several 4 to 8 ounce glass bottles and label. When prepared correctly the solution will be clear with a light pinkish tan color.

Storage

Stored in full, tightly capped bottles, the stock solution will keep indefinitely at room temperature. Partially filled bottles should remain good for at least a year. Should any crystals form due to storage at low temperature, they may be redissolved by warming and shaking the bottle.

Usage

For films

The concentrate is diluted 1+49 to 1+99. Average development times are 6 to 11 minutes @20C for the 1+49 dilution and ~14 for the1+99 dilution.

For Papers

The concentrate is diluted 1+11 to 1+15 with water. Development time is 1½ to 3 minutes at 20° C. The developer produces pure black tones with most neutral tone papers. Image tone may be adjusted by varying the amounts of potassium bromide and benzotriazole.

* Modified extensively from the original and copyrighted as part of a larger work by myself.

Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2014
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