Kaiser Film Retriever issues

foc · Aug 1, 2021

Steve@f8 said:
I’m thinking something has gone wrong along the lines mentioned. Having tried the retriever so many times now I suspect the leader is damaged - the spindle of the cassette is resisting rotation.

The spindle not rotating or is very stiff suggests something is wrong inside the cassette.
It could be that the film tongue is damaged or bent or the film has been rewound the wrong way. If that is the case then the only solution is to break open the cassette in a dark bag so you can process it.

One helpful hint is to use one finger to apply light pressure to the end of the film cassette so as you rotate the film spindle and you hear/feel the click, the film tension doesn't allow the film to spring back or move.

AgX · Aug 1, 2021

I rather think the film leader has been bent, kinked and pressed between spool and casing, making the spool, and thus the spindle, jam.

pentaxuser · Aug 1, 2021

Yes if it is any comfort, Steve, I think there is enough evidence now to conclude that neither you nor the Kaiser retriever is at fault.

pentaxuser

Rowreidr · Aug 1, 2021

On occasion, I have had to use my mouth or a third hand pulling the retriever while I rotated the spindle at the same time, to help push the leader out. If that fails after a few attempts I just go with the pry at the felt and rip off metal.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 1, 2021

faberryman said:
What are you guys doing that you lose the leader? Does that happen frequently?

I wonder that too.maybe more effort should go into not pulling he leader into the cassette. If necessary, I open the cassette in the darkroom and pull the whole film out.

Steve@f8 · Aug 1, 2021

AgX said:
I rather think the film leader has been bent, kinked and pressed between spool and casing, making the spool, and thus the spindle, jam.

I’ve decided not to play with it any longer and potentially damage the film any more.

Steve@f8 · Aug 1, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Yes if it is any comfort, Steve, I think there is enough evidence now to conclude that neither you nor the Kaiser retriever is at fault.

pentaxuser

I’m wondering if the electric motor rewind is partly to blame. Compared to a manual camera, the electric motor doesn’t half retract the film really quick. It was over and done in a matter of seconds and probably set a world speed record for film rewinding.

pentaxuser · Aug 1, 2021

Steve, yes I have an auto-rewind as well which cannot be overridden, hence why I have a retriever. In my case I don't think the auto-rewind was at fault but this may be because the motor doesn't rewind at top speed. In fact with plastic re-usable cassettes for bulk loading it really struggles on the rewind

Frankly I'd have much preferred a manual rewind. The auto saves you what? A few seconds at most, can give problems and prevents any chance of leaving the leader out so removing a film at frame X and reloading it later entails a retriever.

Not that a "moan" changes anything in either of our cases unfortunately

pentaxuser

Steve@f8 · Aug 1, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Steve, yes I have an auto-rewind as well which cannot be overridden, hence why I have a retriever. In my case I don't think the auto-rewind was at fault but this may be because the motor doesn't rewind at top speed. In fact with plastic re-usable cassettes for bulk loading it really struggles on the rewind

Frankly I'd have much preferred a manual rewind. The auto saves you what? A few seconds at most, can give problems and prevents any chance of leaving the leader out so removing a film at frame X and reloading it later entails a retriever.

Not that a "moan" changes anything in either of our cases unfortunately

pentaxuser

Indeed, however I got the electric drive specifically for multiple exposures such that the camera can be set up on a tripod and not touched for as many sequential shots as I choose. (I alter the focus from blur to in-focus for the effect I’m after.)

Nicholas Lindan · Aug 1, 2021

You can get backs for some cameras (Nikon F3/D4 and I am assuming there are others...) that turn the rewind motor off before the film tongue disappears into the cassette.

Some (usually high end) cameras with an integral winder can do the same - the camera's electronics know how far the film has advanced since the back was closed and it can just rewind the film that far and then stop. On some of these cameras you have to get the camera reprogrammed to enable this feature. Any integral drive camera can do the same - even the lowliest P&S, they just don't. There are times the marketing department just needs to be lined up against the wall and shot.

Post-post P.S. Discussion on this point: https://www.photo.net/discuss/threa...e-option-to-leave-the-film-leader-out.481574/

AgX · Aug 1, 2021

As I explained above there are 2 reasons that necessitate the use of a retriever. But how many apply a respective workflow?

A third reason I can think of, is considering the use of a retriever more easy than breaking open a cassette.
Or not even knowing of such. By the look at same modern cassettes the chance to break it open is not quite obvious.

Steve@f8 · Aug 1, 2021

AgX said:
As I explained above there are 2 reasons that necessitate the use of a retriever. But how many apply a respective workflow?

A third reason I can think of, is considering the use of a retriever more easy than breaking open a cassette.
Or not even knowing of such. By the look at same modern cassettes the chance to break it open is not quite obvious.

I’ve been thinking about the potential accidents from breaking the cassette in a dark bag. I even practiced with a scrap film cassette in daylight and was quite alarmed by the sharp edges. Imagine doing that effectively blind.

MattKing · Aug 1, 2021

Steve@f8 said:
I’ve been thinking about the potential accidents from breaking the cassette in a dark bag. I even practiced with a scrap film cassette in daylight and was quite alarmed by the sharp edges. Imagine doing that effectively blind.

Less concerning than you think:

Old fashioned bottle cap removers work too, as does strategically slamming the cassete against the countertop.

Auer · Aug 1, 2021

58 cents at Lowe's

Auer · Aug 1, 2021

RalphLambrecht said:
I wonder that too.maybe more effort should go into not pulling he leader into the cassette.

Youre not serious are you?

tokam · Aug 2, 2021

I don't use it very often these days but for over 30 yrs I've had a Hama Film picker. Easy to use and reliable. Don't know if they are still manufactured but there appears to be quite a few on the second hand market.

foc · Aug 2, 2021

Get one of these, they are so easy to use.

Steve@f8 · Aug 2, 2021

foc said:
Get one of these, they are so easy to use.

View attachment 281824

How does the AP differ from the Kaiser?

AgX · Aug 2, 2021

Just from the photos I assume:

Kaiser:
2 plastic tongues
1 movable
1 with barbs

AP:
2 steel tongues
both movable
1 short plastic tongue

AgX · Aug 2, 2021

tokam said:
I don't use it very often these days but for over 30 yrs I've had a Hama Film picker. Easy to use and reliable.

The Hama one is the model I tried and failed. Maybe I should give it another run of attempts.

It is interesting to see how many technically different approaches were done. A topic for collectors...

Steve@f8 · Aug 2, 2021

AgX said:
Just from the photos I assume:

Kaiser:
2 plastic tongues
1 movable
1 with barbs

AP:
2 steel tongues
both movable
1 short plastic tongue

Hi AgX
Based on what you’ve said, the AP has:
2 steel movable tongues
and
1 short plastic tongue (fixed or movable?)

That adds up to 3 tongues in total which doesn’t sound right looking at the picture of the device.

My misunderstanding, possibly, so asking if you could check the details.

Many thanks for your trouble.

AgX · Aug 2, 2021

Already far above in the thread I had it on models with 3 tongues.

There is at least one video on Youtube that confirms my statement on the AP model.

Steve@f8 · Aug 2, 2021

AgX said:
Already far above in the thread I had it on models with 3 tongues.

There is at least one video on Youtube that confirms my statement on the AP model.

Thank you AgX
That’s the clearest and most helpful video I’ve seen. Order on its way.

AgX · Aug 2, 2021

Tell us then whether you had more success with this model.

Steve@f8 · Aug 2, 2021

AgX said:
Tell us then whether you had more success with this model.

Will do.

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