KA: Kodachrome "just not practical to try to replicate in today's market."
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The US alcohol industry had a similar drop with the poorly thought out 18th amendment, and bounced back nicely after the passage of the 21st amendment. Unlike the photo industry, however, no-one invented digital ethanol to replace their product.
That one had an interesting wealth of knowledge written by PE, together with interesting technical discussions.
Now, the two letter troll and magenta not being a color, wasn't nice
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sure a bunch of people would buy it and shoot it at any cost
who knows they might even go into personal bankruptcy to do this
but a bunch of people isn't going to offset the fact that it will cost a fortune
to make / start up / deal with and they(KODAK) will NEVER capture that $$$ back
velveta is completely different, it is an E6 FILM it can be PROCESSED CONVENTIONALLY
KODACHROME IS NOT E6
it needs SPECIALIZED COATING and SPECIALIZED PROCESSING
if it was any old E6 film you were suggesting they re-coat
or any old C41 or BW film who cares anyone can process it
but ITS NOT ORDINARY ... and NO ONE CAN PROCESS IT ...
i never said there wouldnt' be people to buy it, i said the MASSES of PEOPLE NEEDED
to at least pay for production &c is non existent ...
MattKing
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What is it about Kodachrome that makes you want it to return?
I ask the question because some of its characteristics could be re-introduced in an E6 emulsion. I would argue that the relatively recently discontinued Ektachrome E100GX had a colour palette that was pleasing in a way that was similar in several ways to Kodachrome 64. The technical barriers to doing so are reasonable, and those who have such a strong desire to see a new Kodachrome would certainly be a positive factor whhen it comes to the market forces.
Other characteristics are much more problematic, because they require:
1) a coating procedure which is significantly different to the other current coating procedures; and
2) a development system that greatly favours high volume, centralized machines; and
3) chemicals - both for film production and film processing - that are no longer made, and when they were made, they were made with equipment and processes that no longer exist or are used.
Heck - it is even difficult to get slides mounted now - the resources that once made that easy are almost all gone.
The genesis of this thread came from a comment that made reference to practicalities and today's market. The practical problems require capital - gobs of it - to solve. Today's market is the reason that those gobs of capital are unlikely to present themselves.
I loved shooting Kodachrome. In many ways I am alive today because of Kodachrome. My food, shelter, education and all the other sundries of life during my youth and some of my early adulthood were indirectly funded by Kodachrome. But I'm happy to shoot the remaining Ektachrome in my freezer, and look forward with hope to its return as new film. If they introduce a "Kodachrome" influenced version, I'll be interested.
I ask the question because some of its characteristics could be re-introduced in an E6 emulsion. I would argue that the relatively recently discontinued Ektachrome E100GX had a colour palette that was pleasing in a way that was similar in several ways to Kodachrome 64. The technical barriers to doing so are reasonable, and those who have such a strong desire to see a new Kodachrome would certainly be a positive factor whhen it comes to the market forces.
Other characteristics are much more problematic, because they require:
1) a coating procedure which is significantly different to the other current coating procedures; and
2) a development system that greatly favours high volume, centralized machines; and
3) chemicals - both for film production and film processing - that are no longer made, and when they were made, they were made with equipment and processes that no longer exist or are used.
Heck - it is even difficult to get slides mounted now - the resources that once made that easy are almost all gone.
The genesis of this thread came from a comment that made reference to practicalities and today's market. The practical problems require capital - gobs of it - to solve. Today's market is the reason that those gobs of capital are unlikely to present themselves.
I loved shooting Kodachrome. In many ways I am alive today because of Kodachrome. My food, shelter, education and all the other sundries of life during my youth and some of my early adulthood were indirectly funded by Kodachrome. But I'm happy to shoot the remaining Ektachrome in my freezer, and look forward with hope to its return as new film. If they introduce a "Kodachrome" influenced version, I'll be interested.
E100GX... sigh... seeing that again would be very nice.
Not even slightly similar. The alcohol industry collapsed due to an artificial constraint(prohibition). The moment that was removed the demand was immediately there for the product.
From a Kodak employee at 31:19 of this Kodak Podcast from November 14 2017 : Dead Link Removed.
He says: "Because we're going to smaller size scale equipment, we're gonna be able to make smaller coating sizes of the Ektachrome."
Seems like they are heading this way.
Absolutely inspiring that a thread starting with the basic premise 'Kodachrome simply not returning', has managed to reach nearly 40 pages.
This is what Photrio is for. Good work by everyone who knows better than the manufacturers and distributors, and blessings be upon you.
Can we get it to 100 pages by the end of, say, June?
This is what Photrio is for. Good work by everyone who knows better than the manufacturers and distributors, and blessings be upon you.
Can we get it to 100 pages by the end of, say, June?
Actually, the readership here (most of them) are verifying what the manufacturers have told us. Kodak themselves just recently said that Kodachrome is NOT coming back.
They said "just not practical to try to replicate in today's market." They didn't say it is not coming back EVER. Nor did they say it is IMPOSSIBLE to do it again. More accuracy please.
The world is digital now... blah, blah, blah. Haven't we, film shooters, seen all these arguments during the digital vs film war? We all know film survived and is kicking again especially among the millennial crowd who think it is so cool to listen to vinyl records and shoot vintage film cameras.
More accuracy doesn’t really change the message.
Technically it is not *impossible* to bring back Kodachrome.....but unless some generous benefactor as wealthy as the likes of Bill Gates funds it......it ain't gonna happen without some seismic shift in the market.
As for Kodak having managed to scale down their coating....I heard that too. I understood that it's why they were able to bring back P3200 and that it's a by-product of them getting ready to manufacture the new Ektachrome. The smaller runs make sense on several levels and it's not inconceivable that other discontinued films might come back.....but Kodachrome won't be one of them.
As for Kodak having managed to scale down their coating....I heard that too. I understood that it's why they were able to bring back P3200 and that it's a by-product of them getting ready to manufacture the new Ektachrome. The smaller runs make sense on several levels and it's not inconceivable that other discontinued films might come back.....but Kodachrome won't be one of them.
You miss the critical point. It's not the laws of science that prevent the return of Kodak. It's the laws of finance. It will cost hundreds of millions of dollars to return Kodachrome to the market. The costs to produce this film and the costs to process it are absolutely enormous. Your ignorance of these facts do not change them. At all. Right now two out of the three film producing companies are unable to reliably manufacture film because it costs too much. Fujifilm is financially healthy but unwilling to subsidize a clear money losing operation such as film production. They are dropping films at a faster rate than ever.
Kodak is not a financially stable company and has serious revenue and cash flow problems. 40% of all Kodak shares are held short, meaning that investors are betting (with real money) that the stock's price declines rather than increases. So far they have been 100% correct (-80% in the past 2 years). People have made a lot of money betting against Kodak, not because they hate the company or hate film, but because the financial metrics of the company are so bad, so seriously wrong, that it's the logical conclusion. Kodak simply does not have hundreds of millions of dollars to restart Kodachrome production. Far from it. They NEED hundreds of millions of dollars in 2019 to pay off debts that are due then. To date they do not have this money and what's worse, their cash flow is going negative, giving investors no indication at all that they will EVER have this money. It is that dire.
Ilford is a financially stable company and offers film users the greatest hope for long term film availability.
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That wasn't the point of my mentioning digital in my post. That said, the digital vs. film issue is not the same as the Kodachrome issue. Film is not obsolete, can compete on many levels with digital, and continues on with sufficient demand to keep it alive. For the hundredth time, Kodachrome is obsolete, generally inferior to todays films, and has no demand and a revival is problematic and senseless. Your arguments continue to be senseless as well.
You did not address the issue in my post of how the lack of film cameras and projectors in the public because of digital would factor in to your fantasy Kodachrome revival.
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Query: how many Kodakchrome revivalists actually shoot transparency film?
I say this because the first step in reviving Kodachrome is to show that there is a market for transparency film generally. This means supporting Velvia and Provia (your choice), and Ektachrome if it ever sees the light of day. Supporting it means buying it, shooting it, and having it processed.
So how many rolls per year are all the Kodachrome revivalists shooting? Here's you opportunity to show how deep your support actually runs.
Lionel1972, the sole recent Kodachome revivalist on this thread, has already declined to say. Is there anyone else out there who wants a Kodachrome revival that's paying attention to this thread. (I'm expecting crickets.)
I say this because the first step in reviving Kodachrome is to show that there is a market for transparency film generally. This means supporting Velvia and Provia (your choice), and Ektachrome if it ever sees the light of day. Supporting it means buying it, shooting it, and having it processed.
So how many rolls per year are all the Kodachrome revivalists shooting? Here's you opportunity to show how deep your support actually runs.
Lionel1972, the sole recent Kodachome revivalist on this thread, has already declined to say. Is there anyone else out there who wants a Kodachrome revival that's paying attention to this thread. (I'm expecting crickets.)
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None, the current E6 films aren't worth shooting. Now excuse me, as I have to take cover.
The last time I checked both Bill Gates and his wife still have their brains intact and functioning properly. So there is no new possibility of Kodachrome being revived soon.
OP
OP
One thousand or bust.
And while Ilford is profitable, I was surprised and how small the profit is. I'm actually a bit concerned of the effect TMZ will have on D3200 sales and if that's enough to push Ilford into the red. I sure hope not!
Yes, you are correct. The profit is not as large as we'd like for sure. I've often thought about the situation as you do, except expanding it out further. Clearly there is too much film manufacturing capacity. Fujifilm can't make enough money and neither can Kodak. It would be much better for film users for Fuji to stay in the game since they are completely stable as a company. EK is nowhere near stable. Yet with EK hanging on, Fujifilm has decided to exit. Now color film's future rests on a very weak platform that is EK. Meanwhile, they release a black and white film that will weaken Ilford. This helps no one in the long term.
Ron, I've got someone at another Web site forum claiming that Kodak is producing all the TMAX 400 sheet film it possibly can just to keep up with demand. When I asked where this "information" came from, he cited a dealer. I responded that those who maintain contacts inside Eastman Kodak (you, but I didn't name you) report very intermittent making and coating in Bldg. 38 are how EK is coping with extremely low demand and a line with huge capacity. He said he'd rather believe the dealer.
Perhaps both this thread's Kodachrome revivalist and that Kodak film dealer know something no one else does. Or not.
Classic confirmation bias.
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