KA: Kodachrome "just not practical to try to replicate in today's market."

[fdonadio]

Tweedledum, tweedledee, tweedledum, tweedledee... ad nauseam!

 

[Lionel1972]

You still fail to reason out that the evidence against Kodachrome coming back, which has been shown in this thread by facts, vastly outweighs the evidence that it will return, of which there is none. You youself have failed to show any. Sure, it is theoretically possible that it can return, but that is not the issue. The issue is that there is no evidence that it ever will return, or is there any reason to, despite your continued opinions, suppositions and wishful thinking. Again, the evidence is STRONGLY AGAINST IT.

With such strong evidence, it is ludicrous for anyone to argue in favor of a revival the way you continue to do.

My point is not whether or not it looks likely that Kodachrome will ever come back. My point is the potential for a market for a revived Kodachrome should not be denied based on whatever the reasons of its discontinuation were in the past as long as proper promotion and affordable price would be provided. You keep missing it again and again.

 

[BrianShaw]

Can you quantify the size of the market?

 

[Agulliver]

On the rare occasion that I go to a Starbucks I request "the biggest English Breakfast tea that you can sell me". Partly on the grounds that as far as I can tell they do not actually sell freshly brewed/percolated coffee. And partly because the cup sizes are nonsense to me. I don't want watered down espresso, or something with whipped cream or pumpkin in it. On the occasions that I do drink coffee I want percolated (or at a push filtered) black coffee. Maybe Starbucks sell that but there's nothing on the menu to indicate this.

Maybe one can process Kodachrome as B&W neg in an "Americano" ?

 

[RPC]

My point is not whether or not it looks likely that Kodachrome will ever come back. My point is the potential for a market for a revived Kodachrome should not be denied based on whatever the reasons of its discontinuation were in the past as long as proper promotion and affordable price would be provided. You keep missing it again and again.

What you keep missing is that all the reasons of the past are applicable today, and that the evidence is strong against that ever changing in the future. Show otherwise with facts.

There is no market today, and no sign there will be in the future. Show otherwise with facts.

Your argument carries no weight as it is based on speculation. Show me someone who would revive Kodachrome based on such speculation in the face of all the problems that have been discussed.

 

[RattyMouse]

On the rare occasion that I go to a Starbucks I request "the biggest English Breakfast tea that you can sell me". Partly on the grounds that as far as I can tell they do not actually sell freshly brewed/percolated coffee. And partly because the cup sizes are nonsense to me. I don't want watered down espresso, or something with whipped cream or pumpkin in it. On the occasions that I do drink coffee I want percolated (or at a push filtered) black coffee. Maybe Starbucks sell that but there's nothing on the menu to indicate this.

Maybe one can process Kodachrome as B&W neg in an "Americano" ?

I never realized how confusing a few Italian words could be to so many people.

All the Starbucks I do to sell vacuum brewed coffee (think French Press, but with the coffee removed from the grounds from below rather than having the grounds pushed by a press from above) on request. It is quite good.

Percolated coffee? LOL!!!!

 

[Agulliver]

Oh coffee freshly and coarsely ground, in a percolator basket and percolated for a good 10 minutes on a gas burner....best coffee ever. And the beauty is you can go from bean to mug on a camp site with a hand grinder and gas burner...and stove top percolator.

As for Italian words, I understand the Starbucks cup sizes are nothing of the sort and are actually trademarked made up "words".

 

[RattyMouse]

As for Italian words, I understand the Starbucks cup sizes are nothing of the sort and are actually trademarked made up "words".

You are incorrect. Starbucks uses Italian words. Good god, are you just making this up? Did you even try to education yourself on what you do not understand?

Venti is Italian for twenty (It's a twenty ounce cup).

Tall is an Italian word, as is grande, etc.

 

[Agulliver]

You are incorrect. Starbucks uses Italian words. Good god, are you just making this up? Did you even try to education yourself on what you do not understand?

Venti is Italian for twenty (It's a twenty ounce cup).

Tall is an Italian word, as is grande, etc.

You really a nasty piece of work.

Venti - Trademark of Starbucks. Registered and renewed.
Serial Number
75109690
Registration Number
2175431
Word Mark
VENTI
Status
800 - Registered And Renewed
Status Date
2008-10-02
Filing Date
1996-05-24
Registration Number
2175431
Registration Date
1998-07-21
Mark Drawing
1000 - Typeset: Word(s)/letter(s)/number(s) Typeset
Published for Opposition Date
1997-08-26
Attorney Name
Julia Anne Matheson

 

[Helios 1984]

I wonder if Kodak has considered the possibility to release a E-6 Kodachrome, some close enough tweaked Ektachrome in a classic looking canister? If there is a market for Ektachrome, surely there would be a market for this, or does a non-K-14 Kodachrome is a definite NO, somewhat of an insult to the purists ?

 

[BrianShaw]

Correct but no matter... doesn’t venti mean twenty. TM registration is a legal matter that does not equate to “invented here” or “made up versus real”. It’s to protect against copycats.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

I just got a statement of our pension plan from the residue of EKC. OMG!!!!!!! ...

Please elaborate.

 

[trendland]

Can you quantify the size of the market?

Sure : The market from the period where Kodakchrome was discontinued was as low as possible. Somewere of a little more around 2 percent of all Kodak E6 films. Kodak E 6 films should have had just between 7 - 8,5 percent of all Kodak films (including Bw films) at this time.
And the full sellings of films decreased from a top (in 2000/2002 somewhere around 2 - 3 billion 135 film equivalents) within less 95 percent.
If we may say Kodak had more of the half wordwide market (lets just guess 65%)
we can use simple maths :
1,8 billion Kodak 135 equivalents minus 95 % = ~ 90 million films in total/year
..........= ~ 7,2 million slide fims(8%)......
..........= ~ 144.000 Kodachromes/year....
so we may say the reason of discontinuation was : " Kodak had the need of
much more than 100.000 film sellings a year of this special film" - and don't forget the problem of investments in new K14 lab equipment at this time (main reason from my point).....
with regards

 

[BrianShaw]

Please elaborate.

A friend of mine is trying to live off of his Kodak pension and stock. He’s not doing bad but more often now his hat is not on his head, but in his hand.

 

[trendland]

I wonder if Kodak has considered the possibility to release a E-6 Kodachrome, some close enough tweaked Ektachrome in a classic looking canister? If there is a market for Ektachrome, surely there would be a market for this, or does a non-K-14 Kodachrome is a definite NO, somewhat of an insult to the purists ?

Nice question....Helios 1984 !
I would like to say (so it is just to me - but perhaps some others are with me) :
Every single variation of an Ektachrome film would be very nice. The technical issue is not as great (from the side of the manufaturing) as one may speculate.
Because Ektachrome 100 would give the basis (so as it was in the past).
But don't forget nevertheless it'll be a big investment (to reformulate on Ektachrome100 basis a second emulsion) - so the sellings of Ektachrome 100 have to be real high at first.
A Kodachrome "near" variant type of Ektachrome 100 (in regard of Kodachrome like colors) would cost not more as a reformulated Ektachrome 64 type (like the iconic Kodak EPR 64) from my point.
But at first : The colors coun't be exact the same as original Kodachrome (no problem from my point)
At second : An E6 type film can't have the stability of colors (over decades) like
the original K14 Kodachrome.
Perhaps the second issue was the main reason of Kodachrome's big success in the past. (Colors were also real nice - but this may came secondly to the Most people).
But you are quite right with your thoughts - because in a today's market technical issues would not be as great as it was in the past. Who would care on stability of emulsions to a couple of decades today ? (just out of the perspective of younger people).
The "image" of a special film would stand in the first line of marketing conceptions.
And "yes" KODAKCHROME has such special image !
with regards

 

[RattyMouse]

You really a nasty piece of work.

Trademarking words is something EVERY company does. You suggested, incorrectly, that Starbucks made up words. They did not. They are Italian.

You are wrong and you STILL don't know it.

There is nothing wrong with trademarking words. You are just frightened that instead of English words, Starbucks choose Italian.

 

[trendland]

Trademarking words is something EVERY company does. You suggested, incorrectly, that Starbucks made up words. They did not. They are Italian.

So what about this idea : You may continue your debate on a "tea and coffee forum" - if I remember correct "Agulliver" has gone away from APUG for a couple of month. If I read now such posts ?

"You are wrong and you STILL don't know it."
I may understand his decision from the past.

Finaly : Who cares about if he is correct or 100% correct all the time.?
Just people who have an urgent need to be so ? Think about.......

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodak stock, the original stuff vanished when the bankruptcy was resolved. Mine totally went away. The current Kodak pensions for those in the "old" Kodak now reside in a special plan "funded" somehow by EK funds. There is apparently no real back up for this fund, and it is apparently oversubscribed. That is what I meant above.

As for Kodachrome coming back.... 1) it is not a film with incorporated couplers, so I doubt if an E6 film would fit the definition of a Kodachrome film and 2) there are probably not enough customers world wide to support even one master roll of coating, and finally 3) the research machines or pilot machines cannot do justice to the quality demands that Kodak has for its films.

PE

 

[Agulliver]

Trademarking words is something EVERY company does. You suggested, incorrectly, that Starbucks made up words. They did not. They are Italian.

You are wrong and you STILL don't know it.

There is nothing wrong with trademarking words. You are just frightened that instead of English words, Starbucks choose Italian.

@trendland a huge part of the reason why I left was people like @RattyMouse who get off on being just plain nasty.

I'm calling you out @RattyMouse , you're a bully. Far too many of your contributions to this forum are bashing people, organisations and doing so from a position of ignorance and privilege.

Indeed "venti" is an Italian word. I know enough Italian to know my numbers, thank you. I know plenty of Italians and have visited the country. In Italy, "venti" has stuff all to do with coffee or size of cups. That is an invention of Starbucks, concerned with one of their cup sizes being 20 US fluid ounces....about as far away from an Italian coffee house as one can get. Starbucks names for the vast majority of their beverages and containers were invented by them, using cod Italian in some cases and are trademarked because they mean nothing to do with hot drinks.

A fluent native Italian speaker would have no more idea what Starbucks cup sizes mean than the average gibbon.

 

[faberryman]

A fluent native Italian speaker would have no more idea what Starbucks cup sizes mean than the average gibbon.

So if an Italian walked into a Starbucks and saw Grande, Venti and Trenta as coffee sizes, he would have no idea that large means large, twenty meant twenty ounces or that thirty meant thirty ounces. I think you are selling Italians short. These are not words Starbucks made up. They are real Italian words that mean large, twenty and thirty.

 

[Craig]

On the rare occasion that I go to a Starbucks I request "the biggest English Breakfast tea that you can sell me".

I don't like their tea, Second Cup's tea's are better to my taste buds.

 

[Craig]

So if an Italian walked into a Starbucks and saw Venti and Trenta as coffee sizes, he would have no idea that twenty meant twenty ounces or that thirty meant thirty ounces. I think you are selling Italians short.

The Italians, like all of Europe, use metric; they would have no idea what ounces are.

 

[MattKing]

Kodak stock, the original stuff vanished when the bankruptcy was resolved. Mine totally went away. The current Kodak pensions for those in the "old" Kodak now reside in a special plan "funded" somehow by EK funds. There is apparently no real back up for this fund, and it is apparently oversubscribed. That is what I meant above.

As for Kodachrome coming back.... 1) it is not a film with incorporated couplers, so I doubt if an E6 film would fit the definition of a Kodachrome film and 2) there are probably not enough customers world wide to support even one master roll of coating, and finally 3) the research machines or pilot machines cannot do justice to the quality demands that Kodak has for its films.

PE

PE:
Sorry about your pension uncertainty.
No doubt due to legislative and cultural differences, the pension fund for "old" Kodak Canada retirees is/was a separate fund that was not dependent on Kodak resources, and not susceptible to Kodak decisions.
It is based in Ontario, and is monitored by that Province's private pension fund monitoring officials.
Every two years (IIRC) the Ontario pension monitors issue a public report on the projected claims vs underlying assets of the fund (the "subscription rate").
The last report I saw before my Dad passed away two years ago (and accordingly stopped receiving payments) indicated that the fund had gone from a 94% subscription rate to just slightly over 100% subscription rate in the previous two years.
My Dad had collected his pension for 33 years, so I don't expect his passing had much effect on the statistical analysis.
The government reports and disclosure obligations also include information on the nature of the underlying assets. That gives pension beneficiaries the ability to comment on the administration decisions of the pension administrators. The Kodak Canada retirees association were active in organizing those comments and had plans to make representations to the pension administrators on its members' behalf.
At the time of his passing, Kodak was still funding Dad's extended medical benefits. As I understand it, that funding actually originated from Eastman Kodak, and was/is vulnerable to Eastman Kodak's circumstances.

 

[Craig]

I just got a statement of our pension plan from the residue of EKC. OMG!!!!!!!

PE

I'm sorry to hear that. Who could have ever guessed this would be the outcome back in 1990?

 

[trendland]

Kodak stock, the original stuff vanished when the bankruptcy was resolved. Mine totally went away. The current Kodak pensions for those in the "old" Kodak now reside in a special plan "funded" somehow by EK funds. There is apparently no real back up for this fund, and it is apparently oversubscribed. That is what I meant above.

As for Kodachrome coming back.... 1) it is not a film with incorporated couplers, so I doubt if an E6 film would fit the definition of a Kodachrome film and 2) there are probably not enough customers world wide to support even one master roll of coating, and finally 3) the research machines or pilot machines cannot do justice to the quality demands that Kodak has for its films.

PE

If just 1% of digital photographers would forget digital (and there are many out there) we could see a couple of new films again (caused from demand) and you PE would get much more money month to month.
with regards

PS : If it would be more money from Kodak pensions or more money from increasing stock value would be not from great interist to you - right ?
Possible from boths sides - best way of course...