KA is very disappointing

[erikg]

It hasn't been that long. I haven't seen anything from the Lomo partnership, I wonder about that. Still, nothing is certain, we should enjoy what we've got while we've got it.

 

[removed account4]

... asking the people here to be patient

lol

OK, I'll bite on this one...

How long is your definition of patient?

patience as in
ummm being able to wait maybe more than 2-3 weeks ?

i mean
the company was recently formed ( KA )
the CEO received a flurry of emails of good and bad advice / suggestions
the first and 2nd week of april ...

It hasn't been that long. I haven't seen anything from the Lomo partnership, I wonder about that. Still, nothing is certain, we should enjoy what we've got while we've got it.

exactly!

 

[RattyMouse]

OK, I'll bite on this one...

How long is your definition of patient?

About a quarter of the companies I've worked for have run their natural courses in less time than EK has been out of bankruptcy. Startup to midlife crisis to folding up the chairs and locking the doors.

I submit that the business world of today is almost unrecognizable from the one that existed 21 years ago. And trying to apply the patient business strategies that made sense 21 years ago is most likely a recipe for failure today.

Ken

If you follow KA's communications, you can see that they are up and running and moving virtually every day with their digital/office products. It is ludicrous to think that it simply is not possible to get even a minimum level of communication about their plans for their film line. You know, the SINGLE largest part of their product line that justifies even the entire existence of the KODAK name. When people ask about scanners, does the name Kodak spring to mind? NO. When it comes to office products, do people think KODAK? Not even close.

I can't imagine a company that spits on its own heritage the way Kodak does.

 

[RattyMouse]

lol



patience as in
ummm being able to wait maybe more than 2-3 weeks ?

i mean
the company was recently formed ( KA )
the CEO received a flurry of emails of good and bad advice / suggestions
the first and 2nd week of april ...

Does it take more than 2-3 weeks to SAY the word FILM?

KA existed long before their new CEO showed up.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

sorry to disappoint you, there really isn't anything to "bite"

patience as in
ummm being able to wait maybe more than 2-3 weeks ?

John, you make this waaay too easy...

From the Kodak Alaris Historical Timeline page (top entry):

"2013 - Effective Sept. 3, 2013, the Document Imaging and Personalized Imaging businesses were divested from the Eastman Kodak Company and now represent divisions of Kodak Alaris Inc."

That's 35 weeks ago tomorrow.

Which I'm guessing is part of what prompted the OP's original frustrated post in this thread?



Ken

 

[Prof_Pixel]

LOL

Somehow, the 'I'm important, pay attention to me now' attitude reminds me of a three year old.

 

[MattKing]

If you follow KA's communications, you can see that they are up and running and moving virtually every day with their digital/office products. It is ludicrous to think that it simply is not possible to get even a minimum level of communication about their plans for their film line. You know, the SINGLE largest part of their product line that justifies even the entire existence of the KODAK name. When people ask about scanners, does the name Kodak spring to mind? NO. When it comes to office products, do people think KODAK? Not even close.

I can't imagine a company that spits on its own heritage the way Kodak does.

Still film is a small part of their product line.

Colour photographic paper is the single largest part of their product line.

Neither Kodak nor Fuji have marketed their still films heavily for decades - all of the promotion has been within the trade. Most of that promotion has originated with the distributors - not directly from the manufacturer.

The office equipment market is one that Kodak has an extensive history in, great technological resources, and a real opportunity for growth. They also control the manufacture of their products. So it makes sense that they are promoting that business.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

LOL

Somehow, the 'I'm important, pay attention to me now' attitude reminds me of a three year old.

Look down your nose at, and heap insults on, today's film markets if you wish. But don't then expect them to happily purchase your products.

This is exactly the smug, overly-large corporate mentality that 'Jaf-Photo' is referring to, and the 21-year-old obsolete business mentality that I am referring to...

Ken

 

[RattyMouse]

Still film is a small part of their product line.

Colour photographic paper is the single largest part of their product line.

Neither Kodak nor Fuji have marketed their still films heavily for decades - all of the promotion has been within the trade. Most of that promotion has originated with the distributors - not directly from the manufacturer.

The office equipment market is one that Kodak has an extensive history in, great technological resources, and a real opportunity for growth. They also control the manufacture of their products. So it makes sense that they are promoting that business.

Then the conclusion that many are making, that Kodak's film line is temporary and being milked for whatever profits that can be extracted out of it until it dies is a very valid one.

This leaves me and others that I have talked to in the recent past to now hope that Kodak's film line dies a quick death so that color film users can rally around a single supplier, in the hope that color film can survive past the next 2-3 years. It seems that a slow, protracted death has the ability to strangle both Kodak and Fujifilim. Kodak's 100% ignoring of their product line disqualifies them as being worthy of any support. Fujifilm, as bad as they are, mentions film in their company financial reports and markets INSTAX film everywhere.

A lot of photographers do not want to lose color as part of their photography. For many, digital is NOT a valid option.

 

[RattyMouse]

LOL

Somehow, the 'I'm important, pay attention to me now' attitude reminds me of a three year old.

You miss the entire point of this thread.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

You miss the entire point of this thread.

Nope. Give KA a chance - sorry if you feel slighted.

 

[Jaf-Photo]

If you follow KA's communications, you can see that they are up and running and moving virtually every day with their digital/office products. It is ludicrous to think that it simply is not possible to get even a minimum level of communication about their plans for their film line. You know, the SINGLE largest part of their product line that justifies even the entire existence of the KODAK name. When people ask about scanners, does the name Kodak spring to mind? NO. When it comes to office products, do people think KODAK? Not even close.

I can't imagine a company that spits on its own heritage the way Kodak does.

Yeah, good summary.

 

[RattyMouse]

Nope. Give KA a chance - sorry if you feel slighted.

See, you did miss the point. I *DID* give KA a chance. They failed. Spectacularly. It's game over for KA. I firmly believe that as far as film goes, they will utterly fail.

I'll be very happy to be proven wrong but I suspect in a very short time, we'll see KA fold up their film line and then those left believing up until the last day will be left out to dry.

I'm not going to disbelieve what I see today. I see no need to be religious about it all.

 

[Roger Cole]

Rattymouse
A small correction they also make products for inkjet printers and digital labs so not film only. They also have patents for silverbased antimicrobials. Saying that Ilford is a film only company is really shortchanging them they are a very diverse company.

Kodak had shitty marketing for the past 20 years and unfortunately no Simon Galley who seems to be Ilfords secret marketing weapon.
I also remember how Kodak marketing persons were treated on this forum (by some very nice and by others....)

Um, they do? If they do it's news to me. The now-defunct Ilford Imaging in Switzerland did, but to my knowledge Harman, who have the rights to the Ilford name for film, paper and chemicals, don't make anything for the inkjet market and I'm not aware of those other things either (though they could, dunno.)

 

[removed account4]

John, you make this waaay too easy...

From the Kodak Alaris Historical Timeline page (top entry):

"2013 - Effective Sept. 3, 2013, the Document Imaging and Personalized Imaging businesses were divested from the Eastman Kodak Company and now represent divisions of Kodak Alaris Inc."

That's 35 weeks ago tomorrow.

Which I'm guessing is part of what prompted the OP's original frustrated post in this thread?



Ken

sorry ken
this isn't an argument
just a thread full of people complaining they aren't "there yet"
on a 10 hour trip, ... every 10 minutes ...

 

[RattyMouse]

sorry ken
this isn't an argument
just a thread full of people complaining they aren't "there yet"
on a 10 hour trip, ... every 10 minutes ...

If 35 weeks is too short a time to merely mention film, what would be more reasonable? 70 weeks? 120 weeks? 300 weeks?

 

[Prof_Pixel]

See, you did miss the point. I *DID* give KA a chance. They failed. Spectacularly. It's game over for KA. I firmly believe that as far as film goes, they will utterly fail.

Back in my youth, people with such negative feelings were called 'crepe hangers".

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/crepe+hanger.html

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

You can see some of the range of Harman products on the main corporate site: http://www.harmantechnology.com/DotNetNuke/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx
And Harman Inkjet products has its site here: http://www.harman-inkjet.com/home.asp

 

[Darkroom317]

KA to my knowledge has yet to discontinue anything. They still have the portfolio they inherited from EK. So what if they haven't introduced new products or advertised. Kodak did neither of those why expect it from KA?

As far as Ilford support, I like FP4+ but, if EK hadn't gotten rid of Plus-X then I would still use it.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

sorry ken
this isn't an argument

Correct...

It is instead merely a statement of the fact that 2-3 weeks is not even close to 35 weeks. And thus by extension that, given today's business realities, while the point-of-view being advanced by others may not be credible over the former timeline, it may very well be very credible over the latter.

I personally think 2-3 weeks is insufficient time for a new company to offer statements of strategic direction. However, I do agree that 35 weeks is more than sufficient for them to formulate a position paper for the case of Kodak film. And by that I mean more than the feckless, standard-issue, empty-suit pronouncement of "umm... buy a little more, and we'll make little more?"

If, in the face of a Kodak consumer film market clamoring for some sense of future trustworthiness,* that's the best that a billion-dollar company can come up with after 35 weeks, then, as I said earlier, the data may be trying very, very hard to tell us something important.

Ken

* Critical to remember is that this is only an issue for EK/KA because of EK's recent history of mass-discontinuations of huge portions of their analog photography product lines. Absent that, I suspect there would be very little controversy at all around here regarding EK/KA. This is a crisis of Kodak film confidence created by EK, not by us. (Nor, to be very fair, by KA. They simply inherited the public relations mess from Perez's EK.)

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Kodak, Ilford and Fuji have their future in digital media and technology, not film. We are on a downhill slope. If you want to use these products you must pay for them, any price at all, without argument, polemic or rhetoric. Doesn't everybody here read that it is a globally thinning market for film and that all three companies are providing an ongoing, albeit shrinking product to an equally shrinking market? The whingers should shut up and just get out and use a bit of film, lest it disappear while they are busy drumming away at the next rant.

Or get off their backsides and learn digital.

 

[Roger Cole]

Oh BS. I'll complain if I damned well want to, and when they are so much more than top quality competition (Ilford) it's fully justified.

I could "learn digital" but I've really no interest in it. I'll continue shooting black and white film at least as long as I can get it, but I will also continue making price/value/performance comparisons and buying value.

 

[erikg]

Well the good news, according to an NPR story this morning is that learning digital photography and photoshop is a good way for seniors to keep their brains sharp. So we have that to look forward to. For those of us who already know that stuff, I think we have to learn quilting or something.

 

[omaha]

I could "learn digital" but...

The only real learning curve is what to do with all the d*mn buttons!!!!

Seriously, it can be kind of funny. I frequent a digital forum where a typical thread might start with someone saying "I tried taking a photo in this or that difficult lighting, and it came out wrong..." to which there will be countless replies along the lines of "try this (automatic) setting or that"...when all the while all you really need to do is understand the scene, understand how it is fooling the internal meter, run the camera in manual, and get the shot. Instead of understanding light and the fundamentals of exposure, they spend all their time trying to understand the somewhat inscrutable behavior of the brain inside the camera.

Alas.

Back on topic: I hope I don't come across as "Kodak bashing". I just wish they would give us some reason, ANY reason, to think they are at all serious about selling film long term. I get that the market has declined precipitously, and I get that EK has suffered mightily in the transition, and I even go so far as to not blame them for their troubles...I recently(there was a url link here which no longer exists).

Anyway, I'd like to see something from KA regarding what they think of the film business. So far....nothing.

 

[RattyMouse]

Back in my youth, people with such negative feelings were called 'crepe hangers".

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/crepe+hanger.html

What you call negative, I call realistic.

Kodak is free to choose the way that they run their business. I am free to not care about them when they fail.