Jumping in - I just ordered some Harman Direct Positive Paper

pbromaghin · Aug 27, 2020

Back at the very bottom of the film equipment crash, when people were looking for someone to take equipment so they wouldn't have to throw it in the trash, I acquired a large amount of equipment for very little money. That's why all this stuff I forgot I had keeps popping up. This included several different brands of 4x5 holders. I most definitely plan to waste a couple sheets for things like loading practice in the dark and checking holder fit. There should be no trouble finding ones that fit.

removed account4 · Aug 27, 2020

pbromaghin said:
Well, I had to shave the Civil War General Beard because our 4-year-old (at the time) granddaughter said it was too scratchy

I hope you kept the burnsides !

pentaxuser · Aug 27, 2020

Nothing to do with it being too scratchy. The granddaughter told her friends that her granddad had turned into a cuddly werewolf and social media being what it is, kids were coming from as far as other states to see the cuddly werewolf. It was costing parents a fortune in gas. The beard just had to go

pentaxuser

JPD · Aug 27, 2020

jnantz said:
I hope you kept the burnsides !

It's ironic that this beard style looks like flames.

When I was young 30 years ago and got my first Rolleiflex I was approached by many older photographers with grey beards, and some even wore vests. They felt nostalgic, I suppose.

I became somewhat a stereotype myself after I started collecting and using even older cameras. I bought a classic black leather vest, a pocket watch and sported a handlebar mustache. But by then, digital cameras had taken over, so instead of young photo amateurs, my appearance got a lot of stares by children, who probably thought I was a time traveler. I'm clean-shaven today, but I use a classic safety razor popular when my cameras were young. It's hard to escape stereotyping.

pbromaghin · Aug 30, 2020

RalphLambrecht said:
I used it and it works well. I works best if the images were taken with a yellow filter to control contrast. This way, I rate it at ISO3. development works well in any good paper developer but, I dilute it further than usual, again to control contrast. he result are a fine positive ready to be framed and mounted. in 4x5, they look very special in a large frame.
best of success.

Ralph, 250 ml at 1+14.14 is a gallon. I don't suppose that's what you mean by diluting it further. About how far do you go? I assume you're keeping it at recommended time when you do that? I'm just recently started studying sensitometry and the upside-down characteristic curve of this stuff has me flummoxed as to which way you would be moving or flattening the curve, and at which end.

pbromaghin · Aug 30, 2020

Questions keep coming to mind:

Image latency. With papers normally developed immediately after exposure, does this need to be developed without too much delay? How long to I have do accumulate a few shots so they can be developed together?

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Aug 30, 2020

If it hasn't been said yet: you MUST use a red safelight when working with this. I usually work with an amber LED, which works great with normal variable contrast papers.

Last time I forgot to read the documentation, and I was wondering why all my DP prints were so faint... The paper is the equivalent of an orthochromatic film, so my images would simply disappear under the amber light.

I use it in plate holders for my Rolleiflex, so it gives me these very cute 6x6 prints.

pbromaghin · Aug 30, 2020

Michel, thank you. I caught that from the data sheet. I have 2 safelights but they're both amber. There may be a deep red filter to replace the amber in there somewhere, but I have yet to find it. So no safelight available for now. EvilBay, maybe?

JPD · Aug 30, 2020

Michel Hardy-Vallée said:
I use it in plate holders for my Rolleiflex, so it gives me these very cute 6x6 prints.

When I was in my early teens, I and two friends played a kind of "war game" with hand drawn and cut-out characters and simple cardboard buildings. It was a role playing game without rules. I built a small camera out of a small lightbulb box and used a magnifying glass as a lens. With it we took close-up photos on RC paper and contact copied the negatives into positives. I fondly remember those times. Kids today with their smartphones aren't this creative anymore.

radiant · Aug 31, 2020

pbromaghin said:
Image latency. With papers normally developed immediately after exposure, does this need to be developed without too much delay? How long to I have do accumulate a few shots so they can be developed together?

I have no personal experience for more than week. One photographer said that he developed papers that have been exposed over month ago succesfully.

radiant · Aug 31, 2020

vedostuu said:
@RalphLambrecht Why yellow filter? It isn't multigrade paper? For paper negatives I also use yellow filter of ourse. I have rated the paper to 6 because I'm not using any filter. Also the diluted / old developer I'm using in paper negatives but I've understood that DP papers need to be developed "fully" to have deep blacks?

@RalphLambrecht any change you could answer to my questions? I would like to know if there are some deeper secrets when using DP?

Donald Qualls · Aug 31, 2020

pbromaghin said:
I have 2 safelights but they're both amber.

You'd need to perform a safelight test to be sure, but your local home improvement store almost certainly sells "clamp lamps" -- reflector lamps with a good sized clamp on the back, lamp cord, and a table lamp type push-push switch -- for about $7. A red LED decor lamp will set you back another $5 to $10. I've used one of these with an old Kodak red bulb for years; the red LED replaces the Kodak bulb.

DWThomas · Aug 31, 2020

Re: LED bulbs, I recommend testing. With "green sensitive" X-ray film I had to add a rubylith filter to a red LED to avoid fogging. Maybe with paper it may not be necessary, but those colored LEDs are not necessarily as tight in spectral bandwidth as one might hope.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Aug 31, 2020

pbromaghin said:
Michel, thank you. I caught that from the data sheet. I have 2 safelights but they're both amber. There may be a deep red filter to replace the amber in there somewhere, but I have yet to find it. So no safelight available for now. EvilBay, maybe?

Red safelights are pretty easy to find, compared to amber ones. The usual suspects (BH, Freeystyle, Adorama) all have them. Even Amazon, just search for "Red Safelight" and you'll find these incandescent bulbs dipped in a red plastic coating. In a pinch, I'm sure even a Christmas bulb would work...

tezzasmall · Sep 1, 2020

vedostuu said:
@RalphLambrecht any change you could answer to my questions? I would like to know if there are some deeper secrets when using DP?

This Ilford link explains the two different dilutions of developer, on page 7:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1739/product/720/

I believe using a slightly more diluted developer helps to give more subtle tones, than one would get when using developer at 1 + 9, but the print will take a little longer to develop.

There is a bit of experimentation needed with DP, by the user, to find the look that they are after.

Terry S

radiant · Sep 1, 2020

tezzasmall said:
This Ilford link explains the two different dilutions of developer, on page 7:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1739/product/720/

I believe using a slightly more diluted developer helps to give more subtle tones, than one would get when using developer at 1 + 9, but the print will take a little longer to develop.

It also notes:

"HARMAN DIRECT POSITIVE FB paper can be processed in the same way as other black and white FB photographic papers, in dishes or trays. This product does however need to be fully/well developed in order to attain the optimum results."

What do you mean with subtle tones? Less black? Darker highlights?

Have anyone tried diluted developer AND long times on DP paper? I personally use diluted developer when developing paper negatives to control the contrast.

pbromaghin · Sep 1, 2020

First impressions from unboxing first sheet.

1) It has a lot of curl. This concerned me until I remembered that in a holder it sits flush and flat.

2) The curl will be a problem if using the Jobo 4x5 reels to tank-develop more than one sheet at a time. I remember them being difficult to load with flat Delta 100, but mounting this stuff was really difficult to do, even with my eyes open. And it looks like it will easily fall out during processing.

3) Being paper, it is very soft and the emulsion easily dented without very careful handling. The edge can become frayed while loading/unloading holders.

4) It fits 4x5 holders perfectly. Fidelity Elite, Lisco Regal, Graflex, all good. I had read there may be a problem with it being thicker than film, but did not find this to be the case.

tezzasmall · Sep 4, 2020

vedostuu said:
What do you mean with subtle tones? Less black? Darker highlights?

Have anyone tried diluted developer AND long times on DP paper? I personally use diluted developer when developing paper negatives to control the contrast.

I think I may not have explained myself very well, by using the phrase 'subtle tones. Your wording of, 'I personally use diluted developer when developing paper negatives to control the contrast' is more what I meant to imply.

Terry S

pbromaghin · Sep 4, 2020

tezzasmall said:
I think I may not have explained myself very well, by using the phrase 'subtle tones. Your wording of, 'I personally use diluted developer when developing paper negatives to control the contrast' is more what I meant to imply.

Terry S

I would also be very interested to learn more about controlling the contrast.

AnselMortensen · Sep 4, 2020

I concur with Pbrom.
It does have curl...the curl can sometimes make it hard to load into holders, you need to push down the leading edge near the rails if it drags in the slots.
The edge of the emulsion is easily damaged when wet, particularly when squeegee-ing.

radiant · Sep 5, 2020

AnselMortensen said:
The edge of the emulsion is easily damaged when wet, particularly when squeegee-ing.

Who the devil squeegees fiber paper?

The cracking of borders is really bothersome issue on this paper. Happened to me a lot. And I don't sgueegee, just airdry and still it happens.

Sirius Glass · Sep 5, 2020

vedostuu said:
Who the devil squeegees fiber paper?

The cracking of borders is really bothersome issue on this paper. Happened to me a lot. And I don't sgueegee, just airdry and still it happens.

Many people to shed the excess water before putting it into a print dryer. If one does not squeegee the excess water off [or us a roller] the print comes out too wet. Run the print through a second time and it gets too dried out. I have never had dried out edges.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 6, 2020

cramej said:
Doesn't matter which camera - could be something homemade for that matter. Best to waste a sheet and test it in your film holders first before trying to load them all up in the dark. I wouldn't bother trimming it unless absolutely necessary.

I wasted a sheet to get the right size and then build a fixture to trim in the dark to match that size. pretty simple actually.

pbromaghin · Sep 9, 2020

I took some more steps to test out the materials and equipment.

The Ilfochrome developing tube takes only 250ml of fluid so I was concerned whether the paper would get enough/even development. It turns out that the HDPP gets real flexible when wet and also sticks pretty tightly to the tube wall. With a pre-wet, this should allow developing more than one 4x5 sheet together without overlap.

If hung up and left to itself, HDPP dries with a LOT of curl (see pic below). Now after being pressed overnight it has flattened a bit, so I will leave it in a bit longer to see what it does. Its in Horan's Matthew Brady biography, which seems fitting since it's orthochromatic and prints will be backward.

I checked out one of the Revere print driers from the pile, and it heats up nicely, so next move might be to wet the paper again and see how that comes out.

It's really interesting how this project is finally backing my way into darkroom work. The next steps will likely be to either develop the 2 sheets I exposed on Monday, or cut out some black sheet plastic and see how dark the bathroom will get and set up the Durst F-60 for pre-flashing.

Curled HDPP after air drying:

Cholentpot · Sep 9, 2020

I just got into this stuff with a 2x3, I guess a five o'clock shadow is as far as I need to go. I've greyed early so I'm good there.

This stuff doesn't come smaller than 4x5, I guess if I got some I'd need to cut it myself. That's doable.

Jumping in - I just ordered some Harman Direct Positive Paper

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