J&C - Everything Will Be Alright!

[Rolleijoe]

I think there are more options in ULF film, funky sizes and great prices thanks to J and C. They also made Eastern European products available to fill the void. They have stepped up where noone else had the sense to.

I was purchasing Eastern European products from Freestyle 17 years ago, when there was no J&C.

While indeed a good business move, all J&C did was buy stuff from a vendor in another country, and re-sell it here (Fotoimpex). Mirko was kind enough to repackage his house-brand materials to make it appear J&C had their own.

Seems the equivalent of someone here buying materials from B&H, selling them overseas, and jacking up the prices.

JMO YMMV

 

[John Z.]

I always liked J&C, and bought my Efke film from them. It seems as though it is more difficult to buy it direct overseas and ship it here. I find the IMPEMEX site is somewhat vague about the ordering and shipping process.

Another plus was that J&C offered the new larger sizes of Kodak TMY 400. Does anyone know if TMY still available in 11x14 format?
I will support J&C if they resume their sales; after all, we need to support our suppliers!

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Fotoimpex isn't so hard to deal with. Just send Mirko an e-mail explaining what you want, and he'll handle it personally, in my experience.

 

[sanking]

The fact is that one shouldn't put all ones eggs in one vendors offerings. Perhaps the market is ripe for another vendor to invest in an inventory of the more esoteric film sizes?

Actually it is not the lack of vendors in the market that is a problem at this time. It is the lack of manufacturing facilities that can coat film, and if Forte closes we just lost one more. And Forte was responsible for films sold under the name of Fortepan, JandC Classic, Bergger, and perhaps more.

Anyone have any idea how many facilities there are in the world at this time with machines set up for coating B&W emulsions?

Sandy King

 

[PHOTOTONE]

Well, lets see, for b/w film there is Kodak (USA), Ilford (UK), then possibly two in China (Lucky, Era), one in Croatia (Efke), then Foma(don't know location), and Fuji in Japan. If you add exclusively paper coaters, there would be Kentmere (UK), and Oriental (Japan). If you add contract coating, there would be Filmotec (Germany) and AgfaGevart (Belgium) Still lots for b/w. Much less for color. maybe only three or possibly four coating locations for color.

 

[PHOTOTONE]

Forgot to mention Slavich for film and paper in former USSR.

 

[sanking]

Well, lets see, for b/w film there is Kodak (USA), Ilford (UK), then possibly two in China (Lucky, Era), one in Croatia (Efke), then Foma(don't know location), and Fuji in Japan. If you add exclusively paper coaters, there would be Kentmere (UK), and Oriental (Japan). If you add contract coating, there would be Filmotec (Germany) and AgfaGevart (Belgium) Still lots for b/w. Much less for color. maybe only three or possibly four coating locations for color.

Wonder how many of those will be cutting LF and ULF film two years from now?

Sandy King

 

[aldevo]

Wonder how many of those will be cutting LF and ULF film two years from now?

Sandy King

My concern is how many people can manufacture the support bases for film and paper? When an emulsion disappears from the market - we all know about it - but I'm quite concerned that other unpleasant stuff is happening further down the supply chain under our radar.

 

[sanking]

My concern is how many people can manufacture the support bases for film and paper? When an emulsion disappears from the market - we all know about it - but I'm quite concerned that other unpleasant stuff is happening further down the supply chain under our radar.

Yes, this is a big problem also. I think Simon Galley explained that they could not start up production of HP5+ film in 220 size because they could no longer purchase the paper backing? Or was it the base itself?

I don't think many people have any idea how complicated the production chain really is.

Forte is apprently gone, and from what I have been told, the Efke plant in Croatia is located on very expensive real estate that might be worth more for development than for film production. In any event I would bet that there will be less facilities making film in two years than today.

Sandy King

 

[JBrunner]

Yes, this is a big problem also. I think Simon Galley explained that they could not start up production of HP5+ film in 220 size because they could no longer purchase the paper backing? Or was it the base itself?



Sandy King

IIRC it was the paper backing, something about the machine being worn out and not having enough market to make capitalizing a refurb/new one worthwile. Some talk of contracting the spooling out, but nothing has come of it, apparently.

 

[removed account4]

My concern is how many people can manufacture the support bases for film and paper? When an emulsion disappears from the market - we all know about it - but I'm quite concerned that other unpleasant stuff is happening further down the supply chain under our radar.

there is a company here in rhode island that used to make some of the film base for all the "consumer grade" fuji 35mm film. from what i understand, when fuji closed down their north carolina operations the company began making film base for kodak.

john

 

[Photo Engineer]

AFAIK, Kodak still makes and subs all of its own film base. At present, they have overcapacity in the plant on Ridge Road.

PE

 

[aldevo]

AFAIK, Kodak still makes and subs all of its own film base. At present, they have overcapacity in the plant on Ridge Road.

PE

How "capital-intensive" is the production of film bases or paper supports? Would it seem at all feasible that even a copy the size of Ilford could do this?

 

[Eric Rose]

What is it with the photography industry that manufacturers and/or resellers can just go silent. Take Wisner as an example. Not that I am putting John into the same category as Wisner. It just seems odd to me.

 

[Photo Engineer]

How "capital-intensive" is the production of film bases or paper supports? Would it seem at all feasible that even a copy the size of Ilford could do this?

I really don't know much about it.

A special casting machine is used for film base support. With it are associated drying cabinets and transport mechanisms. The casting uses solvents and therefore has a lot of air scrubbers and fire prevention equipment associated with it.

After film is cast, it must be subbed to allow emulsion to be coated on the surface, and it must have antistatics and antihalation added to it.

IDK if Ilford does any at all. I have used several samples from other companies and they do not coat the same as Kodak support. I think that the subbing is thinner.

PE

 

[carboat]

Last Resort

I will buy from JandC in the future as a last resort. If I am going to be treated so contemptuously: no response to emails, no phones answered, no idea when or if products will be available -- why should I, or anyone patronize such an operations.

 

[jd callow]

Nice first post Carbot. Welcome to APUG.

 

[lee]

Bugs Bunny was fond of saying "you are a Maroon"

lee\c

 

[Terence]

I will buy from JandC in the future as a last resort. If I am going to be treated so contemptuously: no response to emails, no phones answered, no idea when or if products will be available -- why should I, or anyone patronize such an operations.

No response is not really an act of contempt (attitude of despising), but rather, perhaps, an air of indifference.

My response, however, just might be contemptuous.

J&C warned that they would be incommunicado for a period of time. When it became apparent that the period of time would be extended, they posted such information on their website.

I will patronize J&C because they have always done right by me. They have provided products that others have not. They have listened to suggestions from customers and acted on them. Their prices are favorable. They are interested in providing their customers with the widest possible range of products. They are willing to stick their necks out to provide new products. They are genuinely interested in photography. Their customer service has always been top notch (the current, previously announced closure not withstanding). They have stood by their products. They have been an active participant on this forum. Although I have never met, or even talked with their owner directly, I feel he has been an upstanding member of the photographic community.

I, for one, am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Abandoning or badmouthing someone who has obviously worked hard to provide his customers with what they want, just because of some disruptions is, to me, despicable and thus worthy of contempt. Such attitudes are why we have Walmarts (and their low wages and crappy products) across the country instead of mom and pop shops, or even local chains that pay half-decent wages. Personally I'd pay a little more to get a better product from someone whom I feel deals with me and his employees honorably. I'll eat in a local restaurant over a chain because I have a better idea where the money is going.

Contempt? Perhaps. But not from J&C.

 

[Dave Wooten]

Here! Here!

Well said Terence.

 

[JBrunner]

I will buy from JandC in the future as a last resort. If I am going to be treated so contemptuously: no response to emails, no phones answered, no idea when or if products will be available -- why should I, or anyone patronize such an operations.

Troll.

 

[Terence]

Troll.

True. But eventually Big Billy Goat Gruff (or a moderator) needs to come along and throw the troll in the water so we can graze in peace.

Personally, I'm surpised the thread wasn't locked a while ago . . .

 

[jd callow]

I'm leaving Carboat, so all that read the post can get to know him/her all the quicker. If the other mods and or Sean disagree...

As for the thread clossing. For the most part it has been civil, and noone has complained. I have my personal take on the subject (J and C deserves and has earned the benefit of the doubt), I think the thread may be a waste of time, but wasting time and the internet are a bit like white and rice.

 

[epatsellis]

I for one will continue to support John, for one simple reason:
in this day of everybody carrying 4 or 5 credit cards, I long ago decided to forgo adding debt to my life, and either pay with cash, money order or paypal. Many vendors can't deal with an order if you don't use or choose not to use a credit card. John doesn't care how he gets paid, as long as he gets paid.


erie

 

[Brac]

Well, lets see, for b/w film there is Kodak (USA), Ilford (UK), then possibly two in China (Lucky, Era), one in Croatia (Efke), then Foma(don't know location), and Fuji in Japan. If you add exclusively paper coaters, there would be Kentmere (UK), and Oriental (Japan). If you add contract coating, there would be Filmotec (Germany) and AgfaGevart (Belgium) Still lots for b/w. Much less for color. maybe only three or possibly four coating locations for color.

There's at least one more in China (Shanghai Photo who make 120 & LF, and will contract manufacture 35mm for a huge minimum order), the former bits of the USSR contain another 2 or 3, there may still be one in Romania, maybe there are others elsewhere, plus of course J & C were supposed to be setting up their own modern facility (there were threads on this months ago) but I've no idea if this is still happening. Foma by the way are in the Czech Republic.

In colour you've got Kodak, Fuji, Ferrania & Lucky, maybe there are others. I don't know who is making the new Rollei colour neg material which lacks an orange mask.

It was probably inevitable there would be a market shake up following the sudden decline in the market. That process may not yet be complete but hopefully most of these will survive.