Is this film reticulation?

[MingMingPhoto]

It's TX400, Rodinal 1+50, continuous rotation by a filmomat machine, the chemicals ARE old I'm at the last drops but I've been at the last drops before. The film is fresh

 

[BradS]

I don't see any signs of reticulation but it would be better if you layed the negative on a light source and made and posted a photo of the negative itself.
It seems like you'd really have to abuse TX400 to get reticulation. What temperature were the processing chems?

EDIT: OK, I looked really closely at the full size image...yup. I see what looks like reticulation in the lady's pants and the highlights around her left breast.

 

[removedacct1]

It's TX400, Rodinal 1+50, continuous rotation by a filmomat machine, the chemicals ARE old I'm at the last drops but I've been at the last drops before. The film is fresh

Almost definitely, yes. If the wash water was much hotter or colder than the chemistry was, you will see reticulation like this. Do you know for a fact whether or not the chemistry and wash water were all kept within a couple of degrees?

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Hey guys! (I hope this notifies you that I've responded since I haven't chosen to respond with the quote option). Thanks for responding! I'm sure I did use COLD COLD water for a presoak and normal chemical temp for the developer then that same cold water in place of the stop and then room temperature fix then washed again in the cold water.. lol. So okay I just wanted a confirmation. Another question now is I read that you have to control the temp in ALL the processes. Is this true? I feel like I'd only expect this phenomenon to happen when the developer and the pre soak are incredibly different temperatures. Do you guys know if it matters if my stop is off? Also do you guys know approx how much of a temp difference will start to effect the film like this?

 

[BradS]

Yes, you must keep all the temperature of all the processing steps about the same. Presoak is not recommended and not necessary but if you do choose to presoak, the temperature should be at the same temperature as the developer and stop and fix and wash.

everything needs to be about the same temperature.

 

[AgX]

Yes, you must keep all the temperature of all the processing steps about the same.

Not quite. Temperatures may vary. But only gradually. Abrupt changes can lead to reticulation. .


Even Jobo advise to use tap water to run through their tanks, and at least over here no one had fine temperature-controlled tap-water, thus it would be cold tap-water.

 

[BradS]

Not quite. Temperatures may vary. But only gradually. Abrupt changes can lead to reticulation. .

yes. that is what "about the same" means. I understand that English is not your first language and cut you a lot of slack for that reason. Try to reciprocate.

 

[bluechromis]

I remembering reading in some Ilford literature that they said for BW it probably be ok as long as all chems, baths are within 4- 5 degrees of each other (I assume they mean celsius). If that is true for Ilford film, does it also hold for other modern films? I don't know, but I have seen any reticulation when I keep things within those parameters.

 

[AgX]

yes. that is what "about the same" means. I understand that English is not your first language and cut you a lot of slack for that reason. Try to reciprocate.

You misunderstood me.
"All about the same" is different from "gradual change".
The latter may involve quite a difference in temperature.

 

[bluechromis]

Because it seems less common to get reticulation in modern emulsions, there might be a benefit of doing some tests to shed light on was is really going on. One could take some undeveloped film that they didn't care about and, in the dark , pull off lengths of film for tests. Then one could develop the strips with increasing difference in temp between chems./baths and see if some samples did reticulate and at what temps.

 

[bluechromis]

As an aside, I looked up the info. about the filmomat machine. That's quite a gadget.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

What film size? Backing paper issues causing mottling have been cropping up a lot with 120-size film lately...

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

It's reticulation.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Ouch! Maybe the OP wants to elaborate on his method for achieving reticulation like this. There are some who desire the effect and seem to struggle to get it. The OP's done a spectacular job.

Doremus

 

[Bikerider]

I copied the image over then opened it in Photoshop and enlarged it to 200%. I have seen this effect before and I can categorically state it is not reticulation. If it were, the grain/emulsion would 'lump' together like a string of sausages. On this the grain is in seperate individual particles. Yes the temperatures should be kept within reasonable parameters, but you cannot get reticulation by going from one very cold bath to one that is warmer. Reticulation only happens the other way with dropping warm film into a cold bath. It is caused by the film emulsion shrinking in the cold bath, With todays emulsions, they are so resilient, it would be very difficult to get the effect anyway.

The marks that 'look' like reticulation, is actually grain. The film I would suggest was scanned on a flatbed scanner and this is what grain can look like when scanned this way. Scan it on a dedicated film scanner such as a Nikon and the grain would be the normal shape. If it were the print scanned on a flatbed the effect would more or less be the same.

Another problem which is causing this is a 400ISO film developed in Rodinal. Rodinal, or at least the original Agfa version was recommended for film up to 200iso after that you take what happens. Also development in Rodinal should have minimum agitation and the usual was for the 1st x 30 seconds the agitation should be continuous and for the remainder of the time one inversion of the tank every 30 seconds. You have grossly over agitated hence the visible grain you mistake for reticulation.

Rodinal and the derivatives are acutance developers where they give apparent sharpness, but this does not happen with continuous agitation, all it does as I said before is to increase the size of the grain. It is not a fine grain developer even if processed as recommended hence the recommendation it is used on slow to medium speed films.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I copied the image over then opened it in Photoshop and enlarged it to 200%. I have seen this effect before and I can categorically state it is not reticulation. If it were, the grain/emulsion would 'lump' together like a string of sausages. On this the grain is in seperate individual particles. Yes the temperatures should be kept within reasonable parameters, but you cannot get reticulation by going from one very cold bath to one that is warmer. Reticulation only happens the other way with dropping warm film into a cold bath. It is caused by the film emulsion shrinking in the cold bath, With todays emulsions, they are so resilient, it would be very difficult to get the effect anyway.

The marks that 'look' like reticulation, is actually grain. The film I would suggest was scanned on a flatbed scanner and this is what grain can look like when scanned this way. Scan it on a dedicated film scanner such as a Nikon and the grain would be the normal shape. If it were the print scanned on a flatbed the effect would more or less be the same.

Another problem which is causing this is a 400ISO film developed in Rodinal. Rodinal, or at least the original Agfa version was recommended for film up to 200iso after that you take what happens. Also development in Rodinal should have minimum agitation and the usual was for the 1st x 30 seconds the agitation should be continuous and for the remainder of the time one inversion of the tank every 30 seconds. You have grossly over agitated hence the visible grain you mistake for reticulation.

Rodinal and the derivatives are acutance developers where they give apparent sharpness, but this does not happen with continuous agitation, all it does as I said before is to increase the size of the grain. It is not a fine grain developer even if processed as recommended hence the recommendation it is used on slow to medium speed films.

Well you could be right. The only way we'll know is if he shows us a properly scanned negative.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

As an aside, I looked up the info. about the filmomat machine. That's quite a gadget.

Haha yes, it's a great machine. He's still finalizing the design etc. but it's definitely amazing.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

I copied the image over then opened it in Photoshop and enlarged it to 200%. I have seen this effect before and I can categorically state it is not reticulation. If it were, the grain/emulsion would 'lump' together like a string of sausages. On this the grain is in seperate individual particles. Yes the temperatures should be kept within reasonable parameters, but you cannot get reticulation by going from one very cold bath to one that is warmer. Reticulation only happens the other way with dropping warm film into a cold bath. It is caused by the film emulsion shrinking in the cold bath, With todays emulsions, they are so resilient, it would be very difficult to get the effect anyway.

The marks that 'look' like reticulation, is actually grain. The film I would suggest was scanned on a flatbed scanner and this is what grain can look like when scanned this way. Scan it on a dedicated film scanner such as a Nikon and the grain would be the normal shape. If it were the print scanned on a flatbed the effect would more or less be the same.

Another problem which is causing this is a 400ISO film developed in Rodinal. Rodinal, or at least the original Agfa version was recommended for film up to 200iso after that you take what happens. Also development in Rodinal should have minimum agitation and the usual was for the 1st x 30 seconds the agitation should be continuous and for the remainder of the time one inversion of the tank every 30 seconds. You have grossly over agitated hence the visible grain you mistake for reticulation.

Rodinal and the derivatives are acutance developers where they give apparent sharpness, but this does not happen with continuous agitation, all it does as I said before is to increase the size of the grain. It is not a fine grain developer even if processed as recommended hence the recommendation it is used on slow to medium speed films.

Hey guys, so I'm responding directly to Bike Rider, but this is generally for everyone. I've been processing with Rodinal for years now. At first hand processing. I got the filmomat in June and have put a good number of black and white rolls through it (mostly tx400). I scanned the film using a Noritsu LS600. I hit up the Noritsu facebook group to see what the members had to say about the film, and it seems like no one else had the machine create results like that. Most people judged Reticulation just like on here.

What you have to say about the structure being a little different than the typical look I agree with. But maybe it's becasue the temperature change wasn't as drastic as what ever caused those more common types of reticulation / this was a milder form.

Going back to the over agitation, I've already factored in continuous agitation to my processing times, and so have the others on the filmomat group so I doubt it's anything to do with that.

What you're saying about cold to warm water though, do you have some sources I can read or watch about this? Becasue I did the opposite, I think, of what you're saying. I put COLD water to presoak for a minute, and then -- ACTUALLY I just realized sometimes I'll have COLD water and mix it with room temp water that's been sitting in my machine for a day or two... so that prob warms the water up significantly and then the film and once the developer goes in it's shocked by the cold.

anyways I did more processing today after hearing what people had to say and yep, I got good negatives this time around after keeping the presoak bath and the stop bath (I just use the tap water) the same temp as the developer (also fix was the same temp as everything else too me bad, but I think I could get away with letting the fix be room temp).

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Ouch! Maybe the OP wants to elaborate on his method for achieving reticulation like this. There are some who desire the effect and seem to struggle to get it. The OP's done a spectacular job.

Doremus

Soooo when I process, I use that film o mat machine. I get a big bucket of COLD COLD tap water, I wanna say 40-60 degree fahrenheit but I'm being really liberal with that judgment. And I mix my developer with that water and add a little hot water to bring it up to 68 f. I usually use the same bucket of cold cold tap and put it in the machine to be used as the stop bath and as the pre soak. usually I don't mix new fixer so that's often room temp. Rodinal 1+50 Tx400 film n a heart of gold. lol. Ok good luck!

 

[wiltw]

Because it seems less common to get reticulation in modern emulsions, there might be a benefit of doing some tests to shed light on was is really going on. One could take some undeveloped film that they didn't care about and, in the dark , pull off lengths of film for tests. Then one could develop the strips with increasing difference in temp between chems./baths and see if some samples did reticulate and at what temps.

I was about 17 (now 70) when I tried to induce reticulation in Tri-X for creative purposes. I could not get it to do it!!!

 

[MingMingPhoto]

I was about 17 (now 70) when I tried to induce reticulation in Tri-X for creative purposes. I could not get it to do it!!!

Do it now!!!

 

[wiltw]

Do it now!!!

I guess I simply need to send it to you for processing?!

 

[MingMingPhoto]

I guess I simply need to send it to you for processing?!

instagram.com/pinkfolderfilmhouse please do

 

[Bikerider]

Hey guys, so I'm responding directly to Bike Rider, but this is generally for everyone. I've been processing with Rodinal for years now. At first hand processing. I got the filmomat in June and have put a good number of black and white rolls through it (mostly tx400). I scanned the film using a Noritsu LS600. I hit up the Noritsu facebook group to see what the members had to say about the film, and it seems like no one else had the machine create results like that. Most people judged Reticulation just like on here.

What you have to say about the structure being a little different than the typical look I agree with. But maybe it's becasue the temperature change wasn't as drastic as what ever caused those more common types of reticulation / this was a milder form.

Going back to the over agitation, I've already factored in continuous agitation to my processing times, and so have the others on the filmomat group so I doubt it's anything to do with that.

What you're saying about cold to warm water though, do you have some sources I can read or watch about this? Becasue I did the opposite, I think, of what you're saying. I put COLD water to presoak for a minute, and then -- ACTUALLY I just realized sometimes I'll have COLD water and mix it with room temp water that's been sitting in my machine for a day or two... so that prob warms the water up significantly and then the film and once the developer goes in it's shocked by the cold.

anyways I did more processing today after hearing what people had to say and yep, I got good negatives this time around after keeping the presoak bath and the stop bath (I just use the tap water) the same temp as the developer (also fix was the same temp as everything else too me bad, but I think I could get away with letting the fix be room temp).

First of all If I can explain how Rodinal is designed to work to give increased apparent sharpness. The solutions of diluted Rodinal work on the film to produce a visible image but because it is so dilute, with the reduced agitation the edges of the dark areas exhaust slightly quicker than the remainder of the developer film and this gives a clear line between areas of differing densities of grey. (Very much similar to the application of the 'Unsharp mask' in digital manipulation software.) This is also apparent on INDIVIDUAL film grains too which they are more visible! As you state you are using a 1-50 dilution the 'edge sharpening' effect will be more apparent. That said you can quite happily develop a film with normal agitation but will not get the enhanced sharpness because the film is constantly bring covered with fresh developer. The grain will be increased and if you develop a film for the recommended times on the sheet that will come with the developer, that too will tend to also make the grain more visible. (Or even with your modified times). As the edge sharpening affect is more or less cancelled, you can use one of the ordinary developers such as ID11/D76 and get very much reduced grain and the edge sharpness will be about the same

Reticulation is caused on film when a film is developed in normal or higher than normal temperature and during the process the emulsion will naturally soften and as you will know the emulsion is easily marked or even removed at this stage. Then if the film is plunged into a much colder bath the emulsion will shrink because of the change in temperature and this is what causes the reticulation.

Going the other way from cold to hot may have other effects, but one of them is not reticulation! One effect (disaster) being that in extremely high temperatures, I have seen the emulsion detach from the film base itself. I assume you used a stop bath and the fixer were around the same temp as the developer. If it was a hardening fixer then also this would stop any reticulation, even if you used water which was comparatively cold. No, what you have got is a high level of grain and not reticulation.

I would also suggest that the ladies jumper being white, would of course be dense shade, possibly almost black on the negative and this would tend to show the grain more than say a mid tone. Especially as Tri X isn't known for being a fine grain film.

 

[pentaxuser]

Here's a thought. Try the same film again but cut it in two. Try one half in the same developer but this time keep all chemicals within say 2 degrees centigrade then the other half in say HC110/Xtol etc but again keeping all the chemicals within 2 degrees of each other Ideally include that same lady in the same setting with same clothes and ideally light conditions

Then scan both identical negs or a range from the two sets of negs and see which set, if any, produces the same effect

Then let us know

pentaxuser