Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

[MattKing]

Eastman Kodak makes most of its money in the printing industry.
But it has several other income streams - including a financially significant business that coats materials and finishes a wide variety of materials, including an iconic, still successful although greatly downsized colour film manufacturing business.
It also makes some of the best black and white film in the world. It isn't the market sales leader there.

 

[VinceInMT]

Perhaps if Ilford/Hartman went public, those of us who believe in the product could buy in.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Perhaps if Ilford/Hartman went public, those of us who believe in the product could buy in.

What would that (Pemberstone taking HARMAN public) accomplish?

 

[VinceInMT]

What would that (Pemberstone taking HARMAN public) accomplish?

If they wanted to expand it is a way of raising capital but I was more thinking about those who support film being able to put their money into something other than just buying the product.

 

[Craig]

I was more thinking about those who support film being able to put their money into something other than just buying the product.

How would that benefit Harman though? Surely the best way to ensure their ongoing viability is to buy the products. I bought some of the new Kentmere 120 this morning, I'm looking forward to trying it.

I think that for a company like Harman staying private is probably a better way to do business than going public. If the shareholders are internal then they can agree on a long term strategy, which may have reduced profits in the short term in exchange for a greater return in the long term. Having to produce results on a quarterly basis tends to lead to short term thinking, to the detriment of the long term prospects.

 

[Anon Ymous]

If they wanted to expand it is a way of raising capital but I was more thinking about those who support film being able to put their money into something other than just buying the product.

Making a company public can also put a lot of pressure to get maximum short term profit. It can get very short sighted and undermine the longevity of the company. All IMHO of course.

 

[Agulliver]

I am sure @Henning Serger can give you details of the profit margins of film manufacturers (approx). IIRC Henning posted about Agfa, before it exited the market, saying the margins on film were a few cents (I can't find the post).

I know before I retired from photo retail a few years ago, the profit margin on film sales was small. We made more profit from developing and scanning a 35 mm film.

Unless my memory is dodgy, it was Henning who stated that Kodak's profit margin on each roll of 35mm film is 2%

It was in response to the frequent assumptions that they're making massive profits from film. When in fact they're selling film at very low profit margins to try and keep prices down and making most of their profits elsewhere.

I know my local retailer makes about 50p per roll of film, typically charging between £8 and £10 per roll depending on whether it's PF4+, HP5+, Color Plus or something else.

Unfortunately, I don't use Facebook or Instagram. Is there a link you could provide that would allow me to see one of the videos without joining?

Regarding Andy Church at Kodak-Alaris, did he mention anything about hiring 300 additional workers to expand production? The news of this was released recently in the press? Accordingly, that should lower prices if his statement is accurate.

You'd need a Facebook or Instagram account, I'm afraid. I no longer have personal webspace to put sample files. If you PM me your email address I could send some over an email link, however.

Andy Church was a bit pressed for time and the reason for our conversation was something else (faulty batch of Ektar) so we didn't spend a lot of time covering this topic. But he didn't mention the 300 workers being hired, however he's Kodak-Alaris in the UK and we spoke back in the Spring. He may well not have known what Eastman-Kodak in NY were doing, or not been permitted to say. What he did say was that they were really thrilled with the response to the (then recent) launch of Gold in 120, and that they hoped soon to have stable colour film supplies worldwide. I did say that the chatter here was that Gold in 120 was very welcome and that people would buy more of their film if it were cheaper....and he said that basically the only way that could happen was if film sales increased a lot. The hope is that there's no need for further significant price rises in the foreseeable future.

 

[jagee329]

There is a stronger interest in film then there has been in 20 years, that being said the chemicals and production on cameras is almost completely non existent. Until analog cameras reenter production which for the most part seems unlikely, the finite quantity continues to create insane prices.

 

[VinceInMT]

Wow, a new camera store has opened in Billings, MT. Pretty close to where I live (well, it’s Billings so everything is close to where I live). Prices on film are close to B&H. I’ll have to stop by for a chat.

https://www.thecamerastoremt.com/

No affiliation.

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

I don’t know, has it? Where?
I’d be very surprised if Kodak, Fuji and Ilford has actually divulged these numbers.
Even if they had, how much trust are we to put in them?
A profit margin of 2% would be extremely slim and sounds wildly implausible. No business can thrive, to any degree, on that little.
Unless you are calculating “profit margin” in a different way.



But everything is politics. Or politics is another word for sociology, psychology, network theory etc.
Name one aspect or field in the realm of humanity that couldn’t be said to have politics in it.

For Ilford products,
I am paying less than UK and USA pricing here in Canada.

Go figure!!!

I have no, none, affiliation with this company ..

Camera Traders, Victoria BC, Canada.

Won't post a link, find it for yourselves.

TB

 

[Melvin J Bramley]

May I add,
Conversation between myself on the wet coast of Canada, BC, and a friend on the east coast revealed a huge difference in film camera interest.
Cameras on the wet coast are selling for one tenth of the price of the east coast market.
Whilst film photography interest is much above historical levels it is by no means universal.
Darkroom interest is yet another subject.

TB

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Eastman Kodak makes most of its money in the printing industry.
But it has several other income streams - including a financially significant business that coats materials and finishes a wide variety of materials, including an iconic, still successful although greatly downsized colour film manufacturing business.
It also makes some of the best black and white film in the world. It isn't the market sales leader there.

Don't forget Ektar and Portra color negative film and Ektachrome is back.

 

[MattKing]

May I add,
Conversation between myself on the wet coast of Canada, BC, and a friend on the east coast revealed a huge difference in film camera interest.
Cameras on the wet coast are selling for one tenth of the price of the east coast market.
Whilst film photography interest is much above historical levels it is by no means universal.
Darkroom interest is yet another subject.

TB

I'm not sure why, but there is a lot more inventory out here on the left coast.
I think that is why the prices are what they are.

 

[Agulliver]

IT's just a fad. Nothing to see. Going to die out any time now. Just wait. I'm sure it's going to be a fad that dies any day now. Just mark my words.


Then Pentax announce they're bringing back retired engineers to work alongside current staff in a serious project to develop a range of new film cameras. There is no guarantee of success, and even if it does bear fruit it could take years, but they're making a proper effort. Thankfully they still have their blueprints and contact with the old guys who designed and worked on the film cameras decades ago.

 

[Helge]

OK, it seems that there is a few people remembering the around 2% margin. Even though it seems very small.
If that really is the plain truth, then we have no business complaining about the prices at all.

It is worth considering though that (hopefully, without seeming a total tinfoil hat):

1. film manufactures has all the interest in the world in making us think that that is true. And that they’re almost philanthropic in their production of film.
The truth might be anywhere between or above the two extremes of greedy, blind capitalism and stupid philanthropy.
If getting rich was truly all they cared about though, they would probably have chosen another line of work, and that includes the top brass.

2. Annual reports can be doctored in many ways to look like almost whatever you want them to.
Both to please shareholders, but also to mold the public into believing certain things about the company. There is many examples of this.

3. We still haven’t had anyone give us concrete firsthand numbers and links to annuals.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

OK, it seems that there is a few people remembering the around 2% margin. Even though it seems very small.
If that really is the plain truth, then we have no business complaining about the prices at all.

It is worth considering though that (hopefully, without seeming a total tinfoil hat):

1. film manufactures has all the interest in the world in making us think that that is true. And that they’re almost philanthropic in their production of film.
The truth might be anywhere between or above the two extremes of greedy, blind capitalism and stupid philanthropy.
If getting rich was truly all they cared about though, they would probably have choosing another line of work, and that includes the top brass.

2. Annual accounts can be doctored in many ways to look like almost whatever you want them to.
Both to please shareholders, but also to mold the public into believing certain things about the company. There is many examples of this.

3. We still haven’t had anyone give us concrete firsthand numbers and links to annuals.

Here you go. 2% net income. Let's hope they keep film going.

Kodak reports full-year 2021 financial results

Kodak reported financial results for the full year 2021, including consolidated revenues of $1.150 billion and continued growth in key product areas such…

www.kodak.com

Kodak reports full-year 2021 financial results​

ROCHESTER, N.Y.
March 15, 2022

Eastman Kodak Company (NYSE: KODK) today reported financial results for the full year 2021, including consolidated revenues of $1.150 billion and continued growth in key product areas such as SONORA Process Free Plates and PROSPER annuities.
Full-year 2021 highlights include:

• Consolidated revenues of $1.150 billion, compared with $1.029 billion for the full year 2020
• GAAP net income of $24 million, compared with a net loss of $541 million for 2020
• Operational EBITDA of $11 million, compared with negative $1 million for 2020
• A year-end cash balance of $362 million, compared with $196 million at the end of 2020

“Kodak continued to navigate through an unusually challenging business environment in 2021 and delivered revenue growth in all our segments for the first time in years,” said Jim Continenza, Kodak’s Executive Chairman and CEO. “We also saw increases in customer satisfaction and market share in our key print business, achievements which reflect the success of our ongoing strategy: focus on our core businesses in commercial print and advanced materials and chemicals, invest in product innovation and put our customers at the center of everything we do.”

 

[Helge]

IT's just a fad. Nothing to see. Going to die out any time now. Just wait. I'm sure it's going to be a fad that dies any day now. Just mark my words.


Then Pentax announce they're bringing back retired engineers to work alongside current staff in a serious project to develop a range of new film cameras. There is no guarantee of success, and even if it does bear fruit it could take years, but they're making a proper effort. Thankfully they still have their blueprints and contact with the old guys who designed and worked on the film cameras decades ago.

Thought that was some kind of weird joke so just brushed it off.
BUT IT’S NOT!!!
They are absolutely doing it!
That is the greatest Christmas present this community could have gotten.

Time to put our money where our mouth was and buy at least one of these new cameras if we know what is good for us.
Even if the first try should turn out to be somewhat disappointing.

 

[logan2z]

Thought that was some kind of weird joke so just brushed it off.
BUT IT’S NOT!!!
They are absolutely doing it!
That is the greatest Christmas present this community could have gotten.

Yup, it's real. Here's the official announcement.

PENTAX brand launches a film camera project focused on developing new film-based products along with camera fans｜RICOH IMAGING

news.ricoh-imaging.co.jp

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Developing a new camera means companies see the market growing, which is good for continued film production and expansion. I wish Fuji would continue with Velvia 50 in 120 and 4x5.

 

[Agulliver]

Thought that was some kind of weird joke so just brushed it off.
BUT IT’S NOT!!!
They are absolutely doing it!
That is the greatest Christmas present this community could have gotten.

Time to put our money where our mouth was and buy at least one of these new cameras if we know what is good for us.
Even if the first try should turn out to be somewhat disappointing.

It really is great news. I just received a WhatsApp message from a fellow photographer "Pentax!"

I am inferring that they're early on in the journey and any new cameras are a couple of years away at best. I therefore also expect to see people here and on social media demanding their new Pentax cameras from next week and pronouncing that the project has died when there aren't weekly updates from Pentax/Ricoh. The guy in the video does say they might fail. But damn, they're trying. And that's important. It means they see the need for new cameras.

Will I buy one? Depends on price. Cheap enough and for sure, I am in even though I don't need one. Heck if it's genuinely affordable I might even buy one as a present for someone else. Whatever the price I'll be informing my local camera emporium and suggesting to people looking for a camera that they look into the new Pentax.

 

[logan2z]

It really is great news. I just received a WhatsApp message from a fellow photographer "Pentax!

Great news indeed, I was super excited to see the announcement yesterday. Coincidentally, I just received my black KX back from a CLA yesterday. Great cameras, can't wait to see what they come up with.

 

[JParker]

Developing a new camera means companies see the market growing, which is good for continued film production and expansion. I wish Fuji would continue with Velvia 50 in 120 and 4x5.

Velvia 50 is in production in 135 and in 120 format. No need to worry about 120.

 

[JParker]

It really is great news. I just received a WhatsApp message from a fellow photographer "Pentax!"

I am inferring that they're early on in the journey and any new cameras are a couple of years away at best. I therefore also expect to see people here and on social media demanding their new Pentax cameras from next week and pronouncing that the project has died when there aren't weekly updates from Pentax/Ricoh. The guy in the video does say they might fail. But damn, they're trying. And that's important. It means they see the need for new cameras.

+1,000

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Velvia 50 is in production in 135 and in 120 format. No need to worry about 120.

Thanks for the correction. I just checked B&H and they have none of the 120 in stock. What concerns me is since they're dropping 4x5, is 120 next?

 

[JParker]

Thanks for the correction. I just checked B&H and they have none of the 120 in stock. What concerns me is since they're dropping 4x5, is 120 next?

You have to differentiate between certain supply chain issues resulting in non-availability of certain films for a certain time period (which is happening permanently for about three years now with lots of films from Kodak, Fuji, Adox, Film Ferrania) and discontinuation of a film type.
Fujifilm just recently has announced film supply shortages due to raw material availability problems and increasing demand!
For real information you always have to look at the Fujifilm homepage, and not at B&H.
That 120 Velvia 50 will be stopped is quite unlikely, because due to my retailers Velvia 50 is even much more popular in 120 than in 135.