Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

Cholentpot · Nov 27, 2022

VinceInMT said:
We should probably take that discussion to The Lounge but I will tell you, as retired educator who taught for decades at the high school level, student achievement has very little to do with whatever fad has come down the pike be it New Math, Outcome Based Education, Common Core, etc. and EVERYTHING to do with family involvement in the child’s education. Regardless of standards or curriculum, we have, OUT OF THE SAME SCHOOL, students who achieve at high levels and go on to success at major universities and careers and some students who do not do as well. Comparing those two and asking why they achieve differently will yield answers that have nothing to do with standards.

I come from a family of educators. I agree with family involvement being the ultimate reason for success. CC however moves to put a wedge in family involvement. It is so radically different from the way my generation and generations before me were educated that it's near impossible to contribute unless I unlearn what I've learned and learn a new process from scratch.

1+3=4 yay!

Why does it = 4? 'cause it does. Count.

Nooooooo. Because if you take 3 and make it 1 and 1 and 1 and 1 and then add .5 and .5 which then equals another 1 and then put it all together with Jose's apples can you draw an orange? Then that will be Four 1's which is the same as 2+2=4 being the 2 is a 1+1. Draw Argentina.

VinceInMT · Nov 27, 2022

Cholentpot said:
I come from a family of educators. I agree with family involvement being the ultimate reason for success. CC however moves to put a wedge in family involvement. It is so radically different from the way my generation and generations before me were educated that it's near impossible to contribute unless I unlearn what I've learned and learn a new process from scratch.

1+3=4 yay!

Why does it = 4? 'cause it does. Count.

Nooooooo. Because if you take 3 and make it 1 and 1 and 1 and 1 and then add .5 and .5 which then equals another 1 and then put it all together with Jose's apples can you draw an orange? Then that will be Four 1's which is the same as 2+2=4 being the 2 is a 1+1. Draw Argentina.

I have heard those “examples” before but I never saw them in practice. There will always be some outlier that is conflated and spread across the whole field of education By those with their own agenda.

And I don’t see how standards put a wedge in families. Why shouldn’t parents have to learn new processes?

Alan Edward Klein · Nov 27, 2022

Cholentpot said:
You can thank common core for that. It's bonkers, at least the mathematics part.

'We need to teach them to THINK math'

No, the kids need to learn their tables. Stop over complicating it.

Interestingly, I looked at some of the ways they teach arithmetic today and found that I learned new stuff that made the math seem more understandable. That there was a lot of rote learning when I was a kid but without comprehending what was going on. Maybe a combination of both styles is better?

Cholentpot · Nov 27, 2022

VinceInMT said:
I have heard those “examples” before but I never saw them in practice. There will always be some outlier that is conflated and spread across the whole field of education By those with their own agenda.

And I don’t see how standards put a wedge in families. Why shouldn’t parents have to learn new processes?

Hard to do homework when it doesn't make sense. I'm going through this now. It's like doing corporate lingo for simple arithmetic. And it's pointless because the next year the teacher will dump CC and go back to some other process. It's inane.

So, we teach the kids standard tables, learn their basic mathematics and do our best to help with the CC curriculum and assure them it's fine no matter what grade they get as long as they know the answer to the equation and they understand how they got there.

Cholentpot · Nov 27, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
Interestingly, I looked at some of the ways they teach arithmetic today and found that I learned new stuff that made the math seem more understandable. That there was a lot of rote learning when I was a kid but without comprehending what was going on. Maybe a combination of both styles is better?

The curriculum looks like it was put together by a committee. It's convoluted.

Alan Edward Klein · Nov 27, 2022

VinceInMT said:
We should probably take that discussion to The Lounge but I will tell you, as retired educator who taught for decades at the high school level, student achievement has very little to do with whatever fad has come down the pike be it New Math, Outcome Based Education, Common Core, etc. and EVERYTHING to do with family involvement in the child’s education. Regardless of standards or curriculum, we have, OUT OF THE SAME SCHOOL, students who achieve at high levels and go on to success at major universities and careers and some students who do not do as well. Comparing those two and asking why they achieve differently will yield answers that have nothing to do with standards.

Getting back to topic, the same could be said about photography. Some people have a natural affinity for it. So learning different methods has a smaller effect than we think. So using film or digital won't matter as to who's getting the better results.

Alan Edward Klein · Nov 27, 2022

Cholentpot said:
The curriculum looks like it was put together by a committee. It's convoluted.

All I know is 54% of my property taxes go to education here in NJ and I have no kids in school here. (I moved from NY where my kid went to public school).

Alan Edward Klein · Nov 27, 2022

VinceInMT said:
It’s because they have to. The machine tells them how much change to return.

But they don;t understand why. They look quizzically and you can see their brains trying to understand how that happened, like magic.

VinceInMT · Nov 27, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
Interestingly, I looked at some of the ways they teach arithmetic today and found that I learned new stuff that made the math seem more understandable. That there was a lot of rote learning when I was a kid but without comprehending what was going on. Maybe a combination of both styles is better?

Yes, and for me, that rote learning coincided with the introduction of New Math and, as a navy brat, moving through a couple states and schools. Layer on that, the type of schools I was sent to used public humiliation and/or application of the ruler when I didn’t know my times table all the way through. This induced some math-phobia (Skinner can explain how that worked) which I didn’t undo until I got into college and worked my way through math, starting from the basics.

Mike Lopez · Nov 27, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
Processing in labs seems to have held so far although purchasing film has gone up. The problem is that value of currency has decreased due to inflation so everything costs more. I ate in two places recently and they cut out the free side salad with the main course. The last one wanted a 3.25% surcharge if using your credit card. So we paid cash something I hadn't done in years for a big meal. It's got to hurt the credit card companies, Maybe they'll give bigger credits if you use their card in restaurants to encourage their use.

Be thankful that you had the option of using cash. More and more often in my experience, only plastic is accepted. And as soon as they spin that iPad around for you to finish the transaction, you can bet that you’re going to be prompted to tip (starting at 18%) on a purchase you would never have tipped for in the past. I’m talking about literally buying a snack at halftime of a football game and being denied the chance to pay in cash…it’s pretty silly.

P.S. That side salad was never free.

VinceInMT · Nov 27, 2022

Cholentpot said:
…and assure them it's fine no matter what grade they get as long as they know the answer to the equation and they understand how they got there.

Far be it from me to defend a system that I know passes students through who cannot do work at grade level. It’s a factory model and there is pressure to pass them on grade by grade until they can finally be pushed out the door. In my state, a .09 GPA with Ds in required classes will yield a high school diploma.

I spent most of my years in the classroom also on school improvement committees, curriculum committees, standards committees, school day redesign committees, etc. and did, and still do, my best not to be jaundiced toward the system. It’s easy to criticize but put yourself in a classroom where the reading and math levels range all over the place and yet you are expected to teach every student the same. Differentiated education is a great idea but a difficult thing to achieve, especially when you also deal with the behavioral and lack of respect issues as well. And, keep in mind, that something like 15% of students have a special education label.

For any who thinks that they have all the answers, go work as a substitute teacher at different grade levels in your school district. Some real learning awaits you.

VinceInMT · Nov 27, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
But they don;t understand why. They look quizzically and you can see their brains trying to understand how that happened, like magic.

Is it really important in that situation that they understand why?

VinceInMT · Nov 27, 2022

Cholentpot said:
The curriculum looks like it was put together by a committee. It's convoluted.

Keep in mind that curriculum does not spell out how the teacher delivers the lesson. That is generally left to the individual teacher. Plus, actually learning best takes place when a teacher masters formative assessment, something that curriculum does not address.

BMbikerider · Nov 27, 2022

DF said:
This supposed resurgence in Film Photography is largely a passing fad. It will eventually start to round off, die down.
The first-timers at our community darkroom hold their cellphone in one hand while agitating the film tank with the other.
Sometimes they'll bring them into the darkroom for printing and we have to holler at them - NO !!!

That is what they said about artists that paint with brushes and they are still going strong. what I think will kill film is the lack of equipment to use it.

The production of good 35mm and Med Format cameras started to die off in the early to mid 2000's and when they are worn out and cannot be repaired, or the price of film increases because the quantity being produced makes it phenomenally expensive, even the most dedicated film user will give up. Not because they want to, it will be availability of cameras coupled with the prohibitive cost of film

MattKing · Nov 27, 2022

I'm not going to delete any of the "how not to teach" off topic posts - for now.
But if people go back to it, I will delete it, and make every offender write "I won't go off topic" 20 times, on the blackboard, with chalk.
And I'll also observe that my niece, who is a new teacher teaching science in high school, in French and in English, is teaching some material that I did not encounter until I was at university majoring in math and physics.
Just like in photography, many things have changed since many of us were young. It can be dangerous to compare current realities with past circumstances.

VinceInMT · Nov 27, 2022

Mike Lopez said:
Be thankful that you had the option of using cash. More and more often in my experience, only plastic is accepted.....

This is just down the road from me, the location of Custer's Last Stand.

"Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument intends to move to a fully cashless fee system and only accept credit card, debit card, mobile or electronic payments for entrance and permit fees by November 1, 2022."

VinceInMT · Nov 27, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
All I know is 54% of my property taxes go to education here in NJ and I have no kids in school here. (I moved from NY where my kid went to public school).

So? Taxes go for all types of things we don't directly utilize. As stated on the IRS building in Washington DC, "Taxes are what we pay for a civilized society." - Oliver Wendell Holmes

MattKing · Nov 27, 2022

Vince - do I have to get out the chalk?

VinceInMT · Nov 27, 2022

MattKing said:
Just like in photography, many things have changed since many of us were young. It can be dangerous to compare current realities with past circumstances.

Thanks, Matt, for the reminder.

Sirius Glass · Nov 27, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
All I know is 54% of my property taxes go to education here in NJ and I have no kids in school here. (I moved from NY where my kid went to public school).

I see a need for chalk here. This is political.

koraks · Nov 27, 2022

Death and taxes. Neither are particularly fun topics to talk about, so let's not.

Pieter12 · Nov 27, 2022

BMbikerider said:
That is what they said about artists that paint with brushes and they are still going strong. what I think will kill film is the lack of equipment to use it.

The production of good 35mm and Med Format cameras started to die off in the early to mid 2000's and when they are worn out and cannot be repaired, or the price of film increases because the quantity being produced makes it phenomenally expensive, even the most dedicated film user will give up. Not because they want to, it will be availability of cameras coupled with the prohibitive cost of film

Maybe that will leave only the most dedicated non-digital photographers to use large format, collodion process.

Film's appeal to me is the entire process and my control over it, from choice of film to processing and printing in a darkroom. What will kill film for me would be the lack of photographic printing paper, which will probably go first given the number of film users who just scan and (maybe) make inkjet prints.

Alan Edward Klein · Nov 27, 2022

VinceInMT said:
So? Taxes go for all types of things we don't directly utilize. As stated on the IRS building in Washington DC, "Taxes are what we pay for a civilized society." - Oliver Wendell Holmes

I think people ought to pay a "film tax" to subsidize my photography.

Pieter12 · Nov 27, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
I think people ought to pay a "film tax" to subsidize my photography.

We all do. It's included in the purchase price.

Alan Edward Klein · Nov 27, 2022

VinceInMT said:
This is just down the road from me, the location of Custer's Last Stand.

"Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument intends to move to a fully cashless fee system and only accept credit card, debit card, mobile or electronic payments for entrance and permit fees by November 1, 2022."

Most places around NYC have eliminated manned toll booths. You pay with a mounted E-Z Pass on your windshield. Or they send the bill in the mail capturing your license plate by camera and you pay a much higher fee by mail-in check for the pleasure of crossing the George Washington Bridge or Lincoln Tunnel into NYC. Well, it;s the only way to get to B&H from NJ.

Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

Cholentpot

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Alan Edward Klein

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Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

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