Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

[Cholentpot]

I tried archiving my audio and video tapes/cassettes to CD-R and DVD-R but gave up when I realised that the original media last longer than the discs. Though perhaps these days it is viable to back everything up to a very large hard drive, keep two copies and periodically replace them with new units? Except....where does one find the time to back up so much material? I'd never listen to or watch it because I'd be constantly backing up!

Excellent article on that Nine inch Nails track, short and concise. I've had the recent good fortune to be permitted to record some live concerts 96/24 digitally uncompressed. I set the levels to peak at around -18dB because there's really no need to go higher and it gives me a lot of room to play around with the EQ and limiting later on. For example, these are recorded close to a live band with an audience behind me. Band sounds great, dynamic range is out of this world in the recording, probably too high. If one turns up the volume enough to catch a quiet acoustic guitar intro the bass and snare drum are in danger of blowing out your loudspeaker....and you can't really hear the audience applause because it's so much quieter. I also need to "tamper" with the EQ because the vocals aren't that clear compared to the guitar and drums especially. I'm not going from the sound board, this is recorded with a portable digital recorder set up in front of the band. Ultimately I end up with a digital file that's gone through some editing and which I'll choose to peak around -6dB while playing with the EQ and applying some other tweaks. Sounds almost like being there on the night. Now....I could produce a waveform that looks exactly like that Nine inch Nails track and it would sound bloody dreadful.

What has this to do with photography? Actually I am unsure! Perhaps there is a parallel with film making something of a comeback and people who really care about their music demanding something better than the "loudness wars" era masters. Does one really want every photograph taken on film to look like it was taken on a modern device (DSLR, phone?). Because you can tweak in photoshop or your other chosen software to achieve that look. Or you can print in the darkroom or even scan with minimal tweaks and your photo will unmistakably have been shot on film. There are even differences depending on whether you use a leaf or focal plane curtain shutter.

Sadly I have not yet been asked to bring my reel to reel tape recorder to record a gig.

What are CDs? Coasters, my friend....coasters....

What it has to do with film? Just like audio, you always leave a little headspace. If you clip on analog recordings it can sound rather nice. Digital? Nope. Same with film, you have more leeway with messing up...sometimes.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I’ve used all types of CDs and DVDs for trading and archiving my collections of radio broadcasts and started doing this quite some time agO, like when CD-Rs first came out. I recently copied all of them to an external HD. (We are talking about hundreds of disks and around 200,000 files.). All the disks read OK but I had a few where the blank white painted label flew apart inside the reader. I had to clean the reader but the disk read OK. I’m a belt and suspenders person so I copied the whole collection to a space in the cloud where I have (sort of) unlimited space.

I’ve also been digitizing all the stuff I have on magnetic tape. Interestingly, I have about 200 reels from the late-1940s (picked up at an estate sale) on paper backed tape and they play just fine. I have another 600 reels (from another estate sale) recorded in the 50s and 60s and they play just fine. The only issue is that the acetate backed ones can be fragile. Luckily none of them have degraded (no acetic acid smell) but any splices put in by the previous owner have to be replaced.

Copying everything to an external drive (and then backing it up to another drive and the cloud) isn’t just for backup but its hooked up the web server I run on my home network (on a Raspberry Pi.) The custom software I wrote allows me to search and play anything on the drive. I’m working on a search and view tool that allows all my film (which I’ve scanned) to be “played” the same way, even with custom playlists/slide shows.

Bottom line, I think backing up to the latest tech is just something we have to do occasionally.

I've been sending selected personal and family pictures to my daughter on memory cards. The rest no one's going to care about when I'm gone.

 

[VinceInMT]

No wonder your hearing is deteriorating. Earplugs are your friend. Custom ones even better.

I also wear earplugs.

Also, I took a 37-year break from riding, only returning to it 18 months ago and my hearing changed in the interim. My hearing issues are related to my army time, workplace, many concerts, and age.

 

[VinceInMT]

But can you still hear the road sounds with the speakers. The volume of the speakers could kill you missing information that could have helped you avoid an accident.

Yes, I still hear everything I need to for safety.

Also, I only use the sound system when I am out of town, which is well-over 90% of my riding. Two-lanes roads are my go-to. A year ago I road from Montana to Maine and back and never got on a freeway.

 

[Agulliver]

What it has to do with film? Just like audio, you always leave a little headspace. If you clip on analog recordings it can sound rather nice. Digital? Nope. Same with film, you have more leeway with messing up...sometimes.

A good point. Analogue clipping doesn't sound like a disaster but digital does. I first encountered this with my friend's DAT recorder around 1990. It is similar with digital photography for sure.

 

[Cholentpot]

A good point. Analogue clipping doesn't sound like a disaster but digital does. I first encountered this with my friend's DAT recorder around 1990. It is similar with digital photography for sure.

Same issue with digital signals to TV. Either it's on or off for digital. With analog you were able to watch through some interference. Once you get past a certain threshold with digital the signal crumples.

 

[Agulliver]

Similar with damaged photo negatives, and damaged other analogue media. You can play a scratched record or partially (de)magnetised tape. It might not sound great but you can play it, and you can view that damaged negative or slide. But corrupted digital media can be impossible to retrieve. Digital TV is actually great when it works. I've seen analogue HD (roughly 2K) and it was great on a CRT screen with wonderful colours....but I do admit to liking 4K digital TV. However, I am grateful for fibre optic cable to my doorstep. When broadcast digital TV doesn't quite work, including terrestrial and satellite, you can't watch a thing.

I'm unsure if this is any part of the reasoning behind younger people taking up film photography for the first time or others returning to it. But digital, like any other medium, has it's advantages and disadvantages.

 

[faberryman]

I'm unsure if this is any part of the reasoning behind younger people taking up film photography for the first time or others returning to it. But digital, like any other medium, has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Is it possible that with many young film enthusiasts, indeed many older ones too, it is not an either/or proposition, i.e. that they practice digital photography or film photography, and instead that they use their iPhone camera for some things and their film camera for other things, sort of like you don't have to choose between streaming music or playing vinyl, you can do both. I don't think there is a need to characterize it as a rigid dichotomy. It reinforces a tribalism mentality. I think we have enough of that already.

 

[Cholentpot]

Is it possible that with many younger people, indeed many older people too, it is not an either/or proposition, i.e. that they practice digital photography or film photography, and instead that they use their iPhone camera for some things and their film camera for other things, sort of like you don't have to choose between streaming music or playing vinyl, you can do both. I don't think there is a need to characterize it as a rigid dichotomy. It reinforces a tribalism mentality.

Bingo.

Choice is wonderful.

 

[VinceInMT]

Similar with damaged photo negatives, and damaged other analogue media. You can play a scratched record or partially (de)magnetised tape. It might not sound great but you can play it, and you can view that damaged negative or slide…

I was just thinking about this same thing in another arena: automobiles. As they have become for “digitized” with a slew of sensors and digital feedback and control, when something goes wrong not only is it more difficult to diagnose, but a simple issue can put the car on the side of the road. With older cars (I have 4 of them) the points might be worn or the carburetor might need adjustment but the chances are it will still run well enough to get you home. I have a ‘72 Ford F-250 that I hadn’t started in a couple years. It ran sort of OK when I last drove it and when I dropped a new battery in it the other day, I pulled the choke (remember those) and pumped the pedal as it cranked and start it did. Blew some smoke but it was ready to drive. I have a Yamaha CD player that I hadn’t used in a few years and the last time I did use it worked fine. I put a CD in it the other day and it skipped a bunch and finally ejected the disc. Diagnosing the problem is more more challenging than if my Dual or B&O turntables balked at playing.

 

[faberryman]

I have a Yamaha CD player that I hadn’t used in a few years and the last time I did use it worked fine. I put a CD in it the other day and it skipped a bunch and finally ejected the disc. Diagnosing the problem is more more challenging than if my Dual or B&O turntables balked at playing.

Not only that, but if the motor goes out on your turntable, you can spin your records around with your finger. Sure, it's not perfect, but at least you can hear something. Try that with a CD. I had a Dual turntable in college. The motor wore out after four years and I couldn't afford to fix it. To be honest, I didn't spin my records around with my finger. Later my wife gave me a CD player. Do you have any idea how quiet the background is on a CD? It was a revelation.

 

[VinceInMT]

Not only that, but if the motor goes out on your turntable, you can spin your records around with your finger. Sure, it's not perfect, but at least you can hear something. Try that with a CD. I had a Dual turntable in college. The motor wore out after four years and I couldn't afford to fix it. To be honest, I didn't spin my records around with my finger. Later my wife gave me a CD player. Do you have any idea how quiet the background is on a CD? It was a revelation.

I bought my Dual 1226 when I was stationed near Mainz, Germany in 1974-5. It still works fine.

There used to be those paper discs with marks on them that we could spin on the platter and hold a neon bulb next to it to calibrate the speed. Some turntables had those built in on the rim of the platter. I suppose spinning by hand with one of those might get pretty close. ;-)

And, yes, the silence with CDs is pretty amazing. However, I think my tinnitus has negated that. Even tape hiss doesn’t bother me anymore.

Oh, and the CD silence had me relearn setting the volume before the first selection started. With tape or LP I’d adjust the volume based on the hiss or surface noise. With CDs I had to learn not to crank it up looking for that signal.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I also wear earplugs.

Also, I took a 37-year break from riding, only returning to it 18 months ago and my hearing changed in the interim. My hearing issues are related to my army time, workplace, many concerts, and age.

I developed tinnitus about 25 years ago after listening to music too loud I believe. When we bought a new 4K TV 6 years ago or so, I was going to install an Atmos speaker system. Then I realized I really can't hear that well at the upper frequencies and with all the tinnitus background noise, so what's the point? So I bought a sound bar. It came with a special selection that amplifies voices while reducing background sound so I don't have to keep asking my wife, "What'd he say?"

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Yes, I still hear everything I need to for safety.

Also, I only use the sound system when I am out of town, which is well-over 90% of my riding. Two-lanes roads are my go-to. A year ago I road from Montana to Maine and back and never got on a freeway.

Google navigation has an option so you can exclude highways or toll roads. etc.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Similar with damaged photo negatives, and damaged other analogue media. You can play a scratched record or partially (de)magnetised tape. It might not sound great but you can play it, and you can view that damaged negative or slide. But corrupted digital media can be impossible to retrieve. Digital TV is actually great when it works. I've seen analogue HD (roughly 2K) and it was great on a CRT screen with wonderful colours....but I do admit to liking 4K digital TV. However, I am grateful for fibre optic cable to my doorstep. When broadcast digital TV doesn't quite work, including terrestrial and satellite, you can't watch a thing.

I'm unsure if this is any part of the reasoning behind younger people taking up film photography for the first time or others returning to it. But digital, like any other medium, has it's advantages and disadvantages.

It's a kick when some stranger comes over to you while you're shooting film and asks, "Do they still sell film?" Same reason kids get a Mohawk haircut.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I was just thinking about this same thing in another arena: automobiles. As they have become for “digitized” with a slew of sensors and digital feedback and control, when something goes wrong not only is it more difficult to diagnose, but a simple issue can put the car on the side of the road. With older cars (I have 4 of them) the points might be worn or the carburetor might need adjustment but the chances are it will still run well enough to get you home. I have a ‘72 Ford F-250 that I hadn’t started in a couple years. It ran sort of OK when I last drove it and when I dropped a new battery in it the other day, I pulled the choke (remember those) and pumped the pedal as it cranked and start it did. Blew some smoke but it was ready to drive. I have a Yamaha CD player that I hadn’t used in a few years and the last time I did use it worked fine. I put a CD in it the other day and it skipped a bunch and finally ejected the disc. Diagnosing the problem is more more challenging than if my Dual or B&O turntables balked at playing.

When I tried some old 8mm film my wife found (43) 50-foot reels, I loaded one on my projector. It only ran backward which I guess is better than nothing. The forward gears just weren't working. So I investigated getting them digitized. But it;s been awhile, quite a while and they're still in the closet. I ought to just buy another projector for $35.

 

[Agulliver]

I definitely shoot digital and film. Believe it or not, I don't carry a film camera around with me all the time and for "snapshots" my phone is fine. It even has a decent wide angle and half decent 3x optical telephoto. I have a compact digital camera and a DSLR. And I have something like 45 film cameras from 1899 to the early 1990s, probably over any 4 year period I use them all. However I do use film where many other people would rely on digital - gigs being one example. And holiday photos. Heck, my summer holiday this year was recorded on digital, 35mm film, 120 film and 8mm cine film.

I find that where people ask me if film is still available, it's actually folk old enough to have shot film 20+ years ago who are thinking about trying again. Younger people in their twenties and teens know it's around, know where to get 35mm and 120. I do get questions like "Is there any cheap way to shoot super 8?". Most recently from a 21 year old art student.

 

[Cholentpot]

I definitely shoot digital and film. Believe it or not, I don't carry a film camera around with me all the time and for "snapshots" my phone is fine. It even has a decent wide angle and half decent 3x optical telephoto. I have a compact digital camera and a DSLR. And I have something like 45 film cameras from 1899 to the early 1990s, probably over any 4 year period I use them all. However I do use film where many other people would rely on digital - gigs being one example. And holiday photos. Heck, my summer holiday this year was recorded on digital, 35mm film, 120 film and 8mm cine film.

I find that where people ask me if film is still available, it's actually folk old enough to have shot film 20+ years ago who are thinking about trying again. Younger people in their twenties and teens know it's around, know where to get 35mm and 120. I do get questions like "Is there any cheap way to shoot super 8?". Most recently from a 21 year old art student.

I get the same from folks my age or slightly older. 'They still make the stuff?' Kids on the ticktock or insta know that film is all over the place. They're not happy to hear that Fp100 is gone for good. From poking around on the socials you'd think that it's still going strong.

 

[VinceInMT]

Google navigation has an option so you can exclude highways or toll roads. etc.

That’s exactly how I did it, all 2-lane roads. I get the Google navigation voice in my helmet. Last September I did the same thing and routed a trip from here in Montana, through central Idaho, to the Grand Coulee Dam, and then Hwy 20 through the Cascades to Blaine, WA. From there it was a ferry to Port Townsend, over to the coast and eventually through south-central Oregon chasing the Snake and Salmon rivers before back to MT. I rode alone and camped out. Last year I did ride with my son from Pittsburgh to Maine and back and the sound system also lets us talk to each other, a handy feature, like when he said “Watch out for the moose!”

 

[VinceInMT]

I definitely shoot digital and film. Believe it or not, I don't carry a film camera around with me all the time and for "snapshots" my phone is fine.

I agree and do the same. When I travel I write a daily blog, with photos, so digital is the way to go. (Yes, I know, some people develop film along the way in their RV but for domestic travel I am on a motorcycle.) I blogged on my trip to Italy last May and included lots of iPhone photos but also took along a 35mm and a bunch of B&W film for doing candid street photography which I added to the blog after I returned and processed everything.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I bought my Dual 1226 when I was stationed near Mainz, Germany in 1974-5. It still works fine.

There used to be those paper discs with marks on them that we could spin on the platter and hold a neon bulb next to it to calibrate the speed. Some turntables had those built in on the rim of the platter. I suppose spinning by hand with one of those might get pretty close. ;-)

And, yes, the silence with CDs is pretty amazing. However, I think my tinnitus has negated that. Even tape hiss doesn’t bother me anymore.

Oh, and the CD silence had me relearn setting the volume before the first selection started. With tape or LP I’d adjust the volume based on the hiss or surface noise. With CDs I had to learn not to crank it up looking for that signal.

My Dual turntable has a busted on off switch in the arm that I had replaced once before. Now I have its plug next to an extension cord and I plug it in when I want to use it and unplug it so I do not burn out the motor.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...There used to be those paper discs with marks on them that we could spin on the platter and hold a neon bulb next to it to calibrate the speed. Some turntables had those built in on the rim of the platter...

No longer useful. Since the world moved on from clocks that keep time based on 60Hz line frequency (things are digital now, you know, and the time on your screen is more accurate than anything with hands and a motor), power companies today aren't required to maintain it to the tight tolerances previously mandated. Note how much drift old clocks, those with motors or even line frequency-based digital ones from decades ago, suffer over the course of a few weeks.

 

[VinceInMT]

No longer useful. Since the world moved on from clocks that keep time based on 60Hz line frequency (things are digital now, you know, and the time on your screen is more accurate than anything with hands and a motor), power companies today aren't required to maintain it to the tight tolerances previously mandated. Note how much drift old clocks, those with motors or even line frequency-based digital ones from decades ago, suffer over the course of a few weeks.

Yep, but now the audiophiles say that a digital dynamometer is the way to go. There are even apps for phones that do this.

 

[Agulliver]

Got to say my Systemdek IIx900 bought in 1991 may have been the best purchase I ever made, other than requesting my dad buy a Praktica BX20S from the factory on a business visit to Germany. The Praktica has needed a repair, albeit after I dropped it on a stone floor. The Systemdek has needed one replacement belt and four or five replacement styli.

Film cameras tend to be reliable over decades too. The ones I've had issues with are the back finally fell off my Nikon F601M in 2018, the repair needed on the BX20S and the shutter on a cheap 1930s Ensign Greyhound has given up the ghost. Another thing driving film sales is the fact that someone can still pick up a really cheap camera from a market stall or charity shop and it probably works. They may want to upgrade to something better after some months but it gets them started. I "fixed" the Nikon with gaffer tape....

 

[George Mann]

Do you have any idea how quiet the background is on a CD? It was a revelation.

A good, pristinely clean 180-200 gram pressing played back on a reference grade turntable setup often achieves a lower noise floor. This is because digital suffers from a high amount of Quantization noise and distortion.