Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

Helge · Nov 9, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
I don't know anyone who still plays music using vinyl records on a turntable. But apparently, there's a huge market for them. Of course, compared to other methods like streaming music, it's a tiny market.

I think it's similar with film.

Vinyl & CD Sales Both Increased In 2021, Streaming Remains Insanely Popular - Metal Injection

And digital downloads aren't doing so hot.

metalinjection.net

Vinyl overtook CDs solidly a few years ago. It’s consistently a good chunk over 1 billion dollars in the US per year.
And remember, this is freshly pressed vinyl. Not second hand or old stock.
It’s a real market.

Couldn’t come up with global numbers.

What’s even more amazing is that CDs are growing again. Showing a steady increase in sales.

Of course physical media can’t compete with streaming or even download. It’s just too damn convenient.
Basically those two markets are the new combined effect of what radio and rampant tape pirating once was.

But the market for physical media is healthy and has been so for a long time.
Marshall McLuhan was absolutely right.

Pieter12 · Nov 9, 2022

Helge said:
Vinyl & CD Sales Both Increased In 2021, Streaming Remains Insanely Popular - Metal Injection

And digital downloads aren't doing so hot.

metalinjection.net

Vinyl overtook CDs solidly a few years ago. It’s consistently a good chunk over 1 billion dollars in the US per year.
And remember, this is freshly pressed vinyl. Not second hand or old stock.
It’s a real market.

Couldn’t come up with global numbers.

What’s even more amazing is that CDs are growing again. Showing a steady increase in sales.

Of course physical media can’t compete with streaming or even download. It’s just too damn convenient.
Basically those two markets are the new combined effect of what radio and rampant tape pirating once was.

But the market for physical media is healthy and has been so for a long time.
Marshall McLuhan was absolutely right.

Interesting that CDs sales are growing. CDs take up space, and cars no longer have CD players. I kind of understand the popularity of LPs, a similar phenomenon to film. A fragile medium that requires special equipment and care in implementing. A properly mastered CD or hi-def digital file sounds better on a decent hi-fi than most any LP unless it's played on a turntable in a system that costs as much as a new car.

Cholentpot · Nov 9, 2022

Pieter12 said:
Interesting that CDs sales are growing. CDs take up space, and cars no longer have CD players. I kind of understand the popularity of LPs, a similar phenomenon to film. A fragile medium that requires special equipment and care in implementing. A properly mastered CD or hi-def digital file sounds better on a decent hi-fi than most any LP unless it's played on a turntable in a system that costs as much as a new car.

Because at the drop of a hat your favorite album is gone from a streaming service. Or replaced with a version that is not what you remember. Go check up a Youtube video of The Traveling Wilburys. It's been autotuned. WHY?! And that's why I like to own my music.

Helge · Nov 9, 2022

Pieter12 said:
One reason I think a lot of interest in film is fad-driven is the plethora of odd emulsions available, making film photography a kind of artsy crap shoot, giving distorted results.

If that’s what you are basing your Debbie Downer on, then you are absolutely wrong.

“Whimsy film” is a market that rides on the coattails of the remnants of the 90s fad for manufactured “authenticity” and grungy aesthetics.
It’s a small and dying market.

Portra 400 sells as fast as Kodak can manufacture it, despite the price.
Same with the budgety tier of lower priced but still excellent film like Fuji 200 and Gold.

The toy film market is small and has no manufacturing capacity of its own, using leftovers from the few real manufacturers.

Pieter12 · Nov 9, 2022

Cholentpot said:
Because at the drop of a hat your favorite album is gone from a streaming service. Or replaced with a version that is not what you remember. Go check up a Youtube video of The Traveling Wilburys. It's been autotuned. WHY?! And that's why I like to own my music.

That is why my entire music collection is digitized. But no MP3s. I only listen to streaming or YouTube videos if I want to explore or sample a piece before adding it to my collection. Before I digitized everything, my CDs took up two large cabinets--I think I have around 3,000 albums. Plus the old LPs, of course. But they mostly stay on the shelf.

VinceInMT · Nov 9, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
Kay Starr? I thought I was old.

Actually, I listen to 40's music all the time on XM Serius satellite. I'm a WWII era baby born in 1945. But my records are gone as is my Akai reel-to-reel tape player, Acoustic Research AR-2a speakers, Fisher home-built kit amp-preamp, and tuner. I sold my CD collection for about 50 cents a disk.

Yep, Kay Starr. (I’m only a few years younger than you.) Back in the 80s my grandmother gave me all the 45s she bought in the early-mid 1950s, over 250 of them. Lots of great stuff like Les Paul, Crosby, Doris Day, Guy Lombardo, Tony Bennett, and Perry Como. There are a bunch of Johnnie Ray and I’d forgotten about how good he was.

Like all my photo stuff I ever acquired, I still have all my vinyl (45s and LPs), reels, and 8-tracks. I never got into cassettes, except for recording stuff from radio, and only a few dozen CDs. I also have all the tape machines I ever acquired except one. I think I have about 20 reel-to-reel machines. My man cave, next door to the darkroom, is a time machine back into the 60s-70s. The heart of my system, currently headed to the bench for a rehab, is a Sansui QRX-7500 quad receiver.

I never watch television so the music and radio collections fills that not-missed void.

Helge · Nov 9, 2022

Pieter12 said:
Interesting that CDs sales are growing. CDs take up space, and cars no longer have CD players. I kind of understand the popularity of LPs, a similar phenomenon to film. A fragile medium that requires special equipment and care in implementing. A properly mastered CD or hi-def digital file sounds better on a decent hi-fi than most any LP unless it's played on a turntable in a system that costs as much as a new car.

Not true at all.
You can enjoy the benefits of Vinyl with a cheap but solid turntable like the Sony or Sansuis (or the plethora of other manufacturers than the super overhyped Technics).
Just make sure the needle is not worn out (a new needle is not hard to install) and that the pickup is good.
Then you need a good RIAA amp. But those can be had in budget bomb versions too with a tiny bit of research.

Normal Vinyl sounds fantastic if not mistreated, well mastered (digital mastering is fine, this is not religion) and on good thick substrate. But then there is the whole deal with 45 albums, where the sound quality is something else entirely.

And if you can find or happen to have decoders and are lucky to find albums recorded with DBX and CX, that is another upgrade or at least different quality to the sound from normal vinyl.

faberryman · Nov 9, 2022

Helge said:
Not true at all.
You can enjoy the benefits of Vinyl with a cheap but solid turntable like the Sony or Sansuis (or the plethora of other manufacturers than the super overhyped Technics).
Just make sure the needle is not worn out (a new needle is not hard to install) and that the pickup is good.
Then you need a good RIAA amp. But those can be had in budget bomb versions too with a tiny bit of research.

Normal Vinyl sounds fantastic if not mistreated, well mastered (digital mastering is fine, this is not religion) and on good thick substrate. But then there is the whole deal with 45 albums, where the sound quality is something else entirely.

And if you can find or happen to have decoders and are lucky to find albums recorded with DBX and CX, that is another upgrade or at least different quality to the sound from normal vinyl.

I have heard vinyl on several ~$100,000 turntables with ~$50,000 cartridges, along with similarly costly electronics (both tube and solid state) and loudspeakers, and prefer digital. There is no getting way from the groove noise associated with vinyl, which, for me, mars the listening experience. I am not talking about pops and ticks which can be controlled with sophisticated vinyl cleaning machines and anti-static treatments, but low level groove noise. Others seem to be able to tune it out. There are things that they don't like about digital. And they enjoy the ritual of vinyl. So we each pick our poison, and should be allowed to do so.

logan2z · Nov 9, 2022

faberryman said:
...low level groove noise. Others seem to be able to tune it out.

Think of it as audible 'grain'. That might make it more tolerable

faberryman · Nov 9, 2022

logan2z said:
Think of it as audible 'grain'. That might make it more tolerable

It works for Rudy Vallee records for sure.

Helge · Nov 9, 2022

faberryman said:
I have heard vinyl on several ~$100,000 turntables with ~$50,000 cartridges, along with similarly costly electronics (both tube and solid state) and loudspeakers, and prefer digital. There is no getting way from the groove noise associated with vinyl, which, for me, mars the listening experience. I am not talking about pops and ticks which can be controlled with sophisticated vinyl cleaning machines and anti-static treatments, but low level groove noise. Others seem to be able to tune it out. There are things that they don't like about digital. And they enjoy the ritual of vinyl. So we each pick our poison, and should be allowed to do so.

Photographic grain must be hell then?

The noise floor is very much dependent on recording level. Well recorded and manufactured 33 1/3 will push the noise floor way down. With good 45 full size discs the floor is out of sight.

guangong · Nov 9, 2022

Even with some, even a significant, increase in film photography, the advance of digital precludes anything like the good old days. However, in NYC there are B&H, Adorama, and in NJ, Unique, and Bergen County Camera. In that regard, photography is much better off than other plastic arts. NYC, once the home of at least seven or eight high quality artist supply stores, now has none...zero. Only chain stores now. Looked at offerings in a store a few days ago. Even the drawing inks on display were second rate.
Be thankful for the films and photographic supplies we an still get; finding a really good large watercolor brush is impossible. And don’t mention Amazon as an alternative, some items must be bought in person.

Arthurwg · Nov 9, 2022

I was going to add Foto Care in NYC, but I see they've gone to the devil, I mean digital, I also really miss Lens and Repro, a store that had a great supply of antique lenses and Graflex cameras.

Sal Santamaura · Nov 9, 2022

Helge said:
...this is not religion...

Now that's funny!

Sirius Glass · Nov 9, 2022

baachitraka said:
Setting up a full D' system with good lenses are unaffordable for many.

My personally regret is not getting those good analog stuff way before, like Rolleiflex or Hassy et al.

Nevertheless, I am shooting film only these days and for the snap shots the smartphones are doing okay job and also wish for more filme and paper.

Now one just has to wait longer between buying lenses.

faberryman · Nov 9, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Now one just has to wait longer between buying lenses.

Which is a benefit, since it gives you longer to learn how to shoot the len(ses) you already have. You might even realize you don't need to buy a new lens, or that you are lucky that you didn't by the lens earlier because a new version of the lens has come out in the interim.

But the real reason you want to want to wait longer between buying lenses is the exquisite feeling of anticipation of receiving your new lens, just like the exquisite feeling of anticipation you get waiting to get your scans back from the film processor. I send all my film processing to Europe to prolong that feeling of anticipation. That and old world craftsmanship.

Agulliver · Nov 10, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
I don't know anyone who still plays music using vinyl records on a turntable. But apparently, there's a huge market for them. Of course, compared to other methods like streaming music, it's a tiny market.

I think it's similar with film.

Let me introduce myself. I had a brief flirtation with CDs 1987-89 before going back to vinyl and never looking back. I buy CDs only where the music is not available on a better format (vinyl or 24-bit lossless download...I miss DVD-A too). 80% of my music listening is on vinyl. 10% from magnetic tape. 10% digital. I even have an office turntable. I realised that tide was turning about 10 years ago when my cousin visited with his kids. I was searching for a record cousin and I used to enjoy as teenagers and this 10 year old kid said "Ooooh, vinyl. Do you know they're better than CDs?". Even Audio-Technica are re-releasing the Sound Burger. Record players and turntables at all price points are selling. Last year the most popular Christmas purchase from one major, mainstream retailer in the UK was.....a turntable. Rega now do great business at the Ideal Home Show. I've even seen half decent, non-destructive turntables on sale at the supermarket (yay Tesco!).

And no, one does not need a turntable and amp that cost as much as a car. While I am very happy that I invested in a Systemdek for home use back in 1991 (probably the most shrewd purchase I ever made), my office turntable is a modest 80s model sold under several names (Sansui, Memorex, Marantz to name three). And even through my 42 year old Realistic micro amp it sounds audibly better than streaming from my office computer. A few years ago I restored my late father's 1960s Garrard and gave it to a friend who plays it through a Bose bluetooth speaker. Knocks the socks off Spotify etc.

In the last four years (pandemic aside) I've been seeing a lot of small bands at a jazz and blues club. They've also seen a shift into people wanting to buy their music on vinyl records and not CDs. Music lovers who want to *listen* to the music. I have a fair few musician friends (including one or two famous ones) who say the same, their music is selling on vinyl and they're starting to actually make money from music again. Let me tell you, Spotify reduced a man who has had a near 50 year career at the sharp end of rock music including a decade as a full member of a household name band to driving a 15 year old Honda Civic because he makes almost no money from streaming.

As for film being a fad and driven by the come and go weird films.....again....read the info being presented. Kodak are hiring people to manufacture 35mm C41 film because of specific, sustained increase in demand for colour 35mm film. Retailers cannot get hold of enough C41 colour film. Film cameras are flying off shelves of brick and mortar shops and prices on auction sites and even charity shops/flea markets have doubled in recent times. TALK to the people selling these items and they tell you people are buying them to use, not to display or turn into a novelty desk lamp (oh, the horror).

faberryman · Nov 10, 2022

Agulliver said:
Spotify reduced a man who has had a near 50 year career at the sharp end of rock music including a decade as a full member of a household name band to driving a 15 year old Honda Civic because he makes almost no money from streaming.

The ignominy of driving a 15 year old Honda. Is he not selling enough vinyl records to afford a more respectable ride?

guangong · Nov 10, 2022

Arthurwg said:
I was going to add Foto Care in NYC, but I see they've gone to the devil, I mean digital, I also really miss Lens and Repro, a store that had a great supply of antique lenses and Graflex cameras.

Yes, that was a great store. Staff was very knowledgeable and ethical.

guangong · Nov 10, 2022

Agulliver said:
Let me introduce myself. I had a brief flirtation with CDs 1987-89 before going back to vinyl and never looking back. I buy CDs only where the music is not available on a better format (vinyl or 24-bit lossless download...I miss DVD-A too). 80% of my music listening is on vinyl. 10% from magnetic tape. 10% digital. I even have an office turntable. I realised that tide was turning about 10 years ago when my cousin visited with his kids. I was searching for a record cousin and I used to enjoy as teenagers and this 10 year old kid said "Ooooh, vinyl. Do you know they're better than CDs?". Even Audio-Technica are re-releasing the Sound Burger. Record players and turntables at all price points are selling. Last year the most popular Christmas purchase from one major, mainstream retailer in the UK was.....a turntable. Rega now do great business at the Ideal Home Show. I've even seen half decent, non-destructive turntables on sale at the supermarket (yay Tesco!).

And no, one does not need a turntable and amp that cost as much as a car. While I am very happy that I invested in a Systemdek for home use back in 1991 (probably the most shrewd purchase I ever made), my office turntable is a modest 80s model sold under several names (Sansui, Memorex, Marantz to name three). And even through my 42 year old Realistic micro amp it sounds audibly better than streaming from my office computer. A few years ago I restored my late father's 1960s Garrard and gave it to a friend who plays it through a Bose bluetooth speaker. Knocks the socks off Spotify etc.

In the last four years (pandemic aside) I've been seeing a lot of small bands at a jazz and blues club. They've also seen a shift into people wanting to buy their music on vinyl records and not CDs. Music lovers who want to *listen* to the music. I have a fair few musician friends (including one or two famous ones) who say the same, their music is selling on vinyl and they're starting to actually make money from music again. Let me tell you, Spotify reduced a man who has had a near 50 year career at the sharp end of rock music including a decade as a full member of a household name band to driving a 15 year old Honda Civic because he makes almost no money from streaming.

As for film being a fad and driven by the come and go weird films.....again....read the info being presented. Kodak are hiring people to manufacture 35mm C41 film because of specific, sustained increase in demand for colour 35mm film. Retailers cannot get hold of enough C41 colour film. Film cameras are flying off shelves of brick and mortar shops and prices on auction sites and even charity shops/flea markets have doubled in recent times. TALK to the people selling these items and they tell you people are buying them to use, not to display or turn into a novelty desk lamp (oh, the horror).

The greater part of my collection of opera records is in LPs. Much of my collection was built up on the cheap when folks were dumping their LPs in favor of CDs. Complete operas for $5! Many operas never transferred to CDs. The golden age for opera recordings was ‘fifties to ‘seventies, while true opera singing was plentiful.
I still have my MJQ, Bird, Dizzy, etc LPs I bought in 1950s. Also 45s and 78s.
Took my grandson to Thomas Edison laboratory where early cylinders were played on early Edison phonographs. The cost of those simple machines, in contemporary dollars, rivaled high end equipment today.

Helge · Nov 10, 2022

guangong said:
The greater part of my collection of opera records is in LPs. Much of my collection was built up on the cheap when folks were dumping their LPs in favor of CDs. Complete operas for $5! Many operas never transferred to CDs. The golden age for opera recordings was ‘fifties to ‘seventies, while true opera singing was plentiful.
I still have my MJQ, Bird, Dizzy, etc LPs I bought in 1950s. Also 45s and 78s.
Took my grandson to Thomas Edison laboratory where early cylinders were played on early Edison phonographs. The cost of those simple machines, in contemporary dollars, rivaled high end equipment today.

Contrary to a common factoid, there is a tonne of good stuff not released on CD or streaming.

Even stuff that has been released on both formats often has better mastering on LP.
Even a super common album such as Thriller has the best version (1:1 what Quicy Jones mixed on tape in 82) on vinyl.

Agulliver · Nov 10, 2022

faberryman said:
The ignominy of driving a 15 year old Honda. Is he not selling enough vinyl records to afford a more respectable ride?

I haven't met up with him since before the pandemic but could ask him. The point is that someone with an ongoing 50 year career at the sharp end of rock music, and who spent a full decade as a full member of a household name rock band (writing songs, playing on records, playing on tour, and not a hired side-man) should not be short of money....especially as he's not the type to have snorted it up his nose...well...not much of it! I do know he now has more money coming in because the vinyl records of the albums he played on 30-40 years ago are selling again. He mentioned being a bit embarrassed by the Civic but the advent of streaming had cut his revenue by some 70%. Even if more people were actually listening to his music. The musicians in my social circle make diddly-squat from streaming. Revenue now comes from gigging, vinyl sales and writing library music. Not very rock and roll, writing music for TV shows about sheep....but it keeps the heating on. Streams from a top 10 hit might just buy a tin of cat food.

Fully agree that there's plenty of great music that never made it to CD or streaming. And often where a historic recording has made it into the digital realm, it's been "remastered" beyond recognition. There are some exceptions, I have a wonderful 2010's pressing of Miles Davis Kind Of Blue. Indeed jazz and classical music tend to be more sensitively remastered. Try buying a modern edition of a 70s progressive rock LP. Bears almost no resemblance to the original release with the Genesis remasters in particular being travesties. With new material, usually the mastering for vinyl is completely different to that for CD and streaming. They even often get a different mastering engineer to do it.

faberryman · Nov 10, 2022

Agulliver said:
Fully agree that there's plenty of great music that never made it to CD or streaming. And often where a historic recording has made it into the digital realm, it's been "remastered" beyond recognition. There are some exceptions, I have a wonderful 2010's pressing of Miles Davis Kind Of Blue. Indeed jazz and classical music tend to be more sensitively remastered. Try buying a modern edition of a 70s progressive rock LP. Bears almost no resemblance to the original release with the Genesis remasters in particular being travesties. With new material, usually the mastering for vinyl is completely different to that for CD and streaming. They even often get a different mastering engineer to do it.

I am familiar with the evils of current recording practices and remastering rock. Here is a piece I wrote on it a while back when I was reviewing high end audio equipment.

Nine Inch Nails – Audiophile Master? Are You Kidding Me? | Ultra High-End Audio and Home Theater Review

It has been all over the internet. Nine Inch Nails has released a new album - Hesitation Marks - in two versions: Audiophile Mastered and standard. H...

web.archive.org

Cholentpot · Nov 10, 2022

faberryman said:
I am familiar with the evils of current recording practices and remastering rock. Here is a piece I wrote on it a while back when I was reviewing high end audio equipment.

Nine Inch Nails – Audiophile Master? Are You Kidding Me? | Ultra High-End Audio and Home Theater Review

It has been all over the internet. Nine Inch Nails has released a new album - Hesitation Marks - in two versions: Audiophile Mastered and standard. H...

web.archive.org

Loudness wars. Ugh.

You think the new Revolver album clipped all the highs and lows too?

faberryman · Nov 10, 2022

Cholentpot said:
Loudness wars. Ugh.

You think the new Revolver album clipped all the highs and lows too?

I don't have any idea. I haven't bought any new (old) music in several years. The last time I bought Revolver was in 2009 when the remastered CD sets came out.

Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

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