Is there really a strong interest in film photography?

[Helge]

We've blown way off subject.

There's a strong interest in film photography because in stores and online color film won't stay in stock. There have been multiple price hikes and people don't seem to care. Kodak has reintroduced a few stocks and quite often some third party is putting out a repackaged film. Prices of used cameras has doubled and sometimes quadrupled. No-one laughs at me using film much anymore and they see it as a mark of respect and professionalism. I have a handful of friends that 'consult' with me about cameras before they post them on eBay or whatnot to sell and make money.

Currently film photography is having a moment. It's nice to be on the forefront. It's also nice to have all these cameras that no-one cared about 10 years ago that I can't afford now if I wanted to buy.

Let’s hope that it’s more than a moment, otherwise why even make the effort now?

It’s imperative to treat newcomers right, and that doesn’t always mean to treat them how they want to be treated, or telling them what they want to hear.

 

[Cholentpot]

Let’s hope that it’s more than a moment, otherwise why even make the effort now?

It’s imperative to treat newcomers right, and that doesn’t always mean to treat them how they want to be treated, or telling them what they want to hear.

Why not? Treat them nicely initially and tell them what they want to hear. If they express interest bring them into the fold. If they're idiots, ignore them. It doesn't cost anything, and if we're too abrasive we'll toss the baby with the dishwater. The more the merrier.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

What do you do with your prints?

I was thinking of getting one of those digital TVs that has a picture mode which show all your pictures on a rotational basis frame nicely on the TV to make it seem like you're actually looking at framed photos. But then my wife asked me who we are inviting over to sit there and watch the rotation of my pictures?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

At 8 I learned how to shoot, process, print film, did that simply as a part of life until I happened to hear about Minor White and studied with one of his direct students at Mendocino Art Center. I was 25 at that time. Now I'm 78 and as a direct result of that last experience I now rarely photograph anything that I don't want to print...which I do with inkjet. That may mean I value my individual prints more highly, yet view them more harshly, than many film photographers seem to do.

My prints are valuable to me (unless I discard them). For a long while I put them in archival boxes. I realized I wasn't being honest with myself and spent a couple of years, on and off, by editing the keepers and placing them all in Itoya archival albums
This means I've looked relatively regularly at all of my prints. Some are hung for six months or a year at home in inexpensive glass frames. Because I live with those individuals and learn their weaknesses, they sometimes get culled. Often I re-print with new eyes.

Looking ahead I find that I need to do my photography in terms of projects...which means I'll have to remove the prints I've hung, almost certainly discarding a few...because I've come to understand their individual shortcomings and am re-thinking how I want to exhibit my prints...perhaps at a receptive gallery.

Most of my prints are on 11X17 paper.

As long as you get pleasure from the process, that's what's important. I went to the restaurant yesterday. I noticed that everybody was eating something different.

 

[Helge]

Why not? Treat them nicely initially and tell them what they want to hear. If they express interest bring them into the fold. If they're idiots, ignore them. It doesn't cost anything, and if we're too abrasive we'll toss the baby with the dishwater. The more the merrier.

They want to hear that point and shoots are just as good as anything else. That you only need a cheap used V500 to scan everything "because there isn't anything more on the film". They want to hear that ColorPlus is fantastic. They want to hear that they are born master photographers. They want to hear that the pretty morons they follow on YouTube is right. etc.

We want to disabuse them of these fondly held notions, to set up something that doesn't wear out, lose its lustre and become "too expensive and boring" all of a sudden.
We want to set up the right expectations to avoid later disappointment.
If we lose a few during the initial rounds, film is probably better off for it overall.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Movie making seems to be getting very popular today either digitally or with film. But it seems to be more collaborative than still photography. I wonder if that's the reason it's getting more popular today compared to still photography?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Isn't it interesting that many today expect photography to be instantaneous. As you say, other media takes time to even start to be finalized. Ceramics, painting, sculpture. Painters can take months if not years to finish a painting. although there are some who will churn out a quantity of small paintings in a single day. Watercolors are pretty spontaneous, but take a lot of skill. There's no undo or painting over with them.

Why be limited to one or the other? For parties and vacations I take digital pictures and make video slideshows to be shown on a TV or YouTube or monitor.

When I'm in my contemplative mood, I pull out my big film cameras. Time slows down and the long period of time required to get a satisfactory photograph is fine.

 

[Cholentpot]

They want to hear that point and shoots are just as good as anything else. That you only need a cheap used V500 to scan everything "because there isn't anything more on the film". They want to hear that ColorPlus is fantastic. They want to hear that they are born master photographers. They want to hear that the pretty morons they follow on YouTube is right. etc.

We want to disabuse them of these fondly held notions, to set up something that doesn't wear out, lose its lustre and become "too expensive and boring" all of a sudden.
We want to set up the right expectations to avoid later disappointment.
If we lose a few during the initial rounds, film is probably better off for it overall.

Too boring and expensive crowd will get there anyhow. ColorPlus is fantastic, the flatbed is good enough, if they think they're a born master nothing will change their mind and the petty youtubers who shoot film are their Weston. I'd rather them get bored and walk away rather then have some abrasive fud scare them off.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him fish.

When I started with film a little while back none of this existed. No hipsters, no youtubers, not much help. I learned it by trial and error and hanging out at the soon to close photo stores. I go there in the end even if I'm no master.

 

[Helge]

Too boring and expensive crowd will get there anyhow. ColorPlus is fantastic, the flatbed is good enough, if they think they're a born master nothing will change their mind and the petty youtubers who shoot film are their Weston. I'd rather them get bored and walk away rather then have some abrasive fud scare them off.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him fish.

When I started with film a little while back none of this existed. No hipsters, no youtubers, not much help. I learned it by trial and error and hanging out at the soon to close photo stores. I go there in the end even if I'm no master.

Too low a starting point will tend to stick around and become “how it is”. Creating a false normal.

There is no graduating from a Mju II and a V500, if you think that is all there is to it and if you have spend inordinate amounts of time and money on BS from “fad” riding photo dealers.

Good photos with film will become witchcraft for the few geeks and sour grapes.
Beginners models is a terrible idea. At least dumbed down ones.

This is not speculation. I’ve experienced this.

 

[Cholentpot]

Too low a starting point will tend to stick around and become “how it is”. Creating a false normal.

There is no graduating from a Mju II and a V500, if you think that is all there is to it and if you have spend inordinate amounts of time and money on BS from “fad” riding photo dealers.

Good photos with film will become witchcraft for the few geeks and sour grapes.
Beginners models is a terrible idea. At least dumbed down ones.

This is not speculation. I’ve experienced this.

Not my job.

Let them buy up film stocks and keep the labs running. I'll happily keep on doing what I do and let them enjoy what they do.

 

[Helge]

Not my job.

Let them buy up film stocks and keep the labs running. I'll happily keep on doing what I do and let them enjoy what they do.

Point is, they will stop, and quite suddenly too.
If, they get disillusioned.

 

[Cholentpot]

Point is, they will stop, and quite suddenly too.
If, they get disillusioned.

I'll wait...

 

[markjwyatt]

Movie making seems to be getting very popular today either digitally or with film. But it seems to be more collaborative than still photography. I wonder if that's the reason it's getting more popular today compared to still photography?

Lot of young people were raised on video, and many could easily make videos on their phones. In film days, and even before powerful mobile devices, making films took a lot more effort and equipment (camera, editor, projector, etc. for film, camera, editing software, tape players, etc. for tape).

 

[reddesert]

Arguing with newcomers to film is not productive. If they have preferences that are different from yours, that's ok. BITD of film dominance, people also made mistakes and figured things out from experience, and that was part of the process. It is helpful to offer factual advice and answer questions on technically difficult subjects, like helping people with exposure problems or beginners at home-developing film. It's not helpful to argue with people because they like plastic cameras or Colorplus film.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Arguing with newcomers to film is not productive. If they have preferences that are different from yours, that's ok. BITD of film dominance, people also made mistakes and figured things out from experience, and that was part of the process. It is helpful to offer factual advice and answer questions on technically difficult subjects, like helping people with exposure problems or beginners at home-developing film. It's not helpful to argue with people because they like plastic cameras or Colorplus film.

If one does not make mistakes while learning, then they are not learning. Sometimes screwing something up is a good place to start.

 

[logan2z]

If one does not make mistakes while learning, then they are not learning. Sometimes screwing something up is a good place to start.

Then I'm on my way to becoming a genius

 

[Sirius Glass]

Then I'm on my way to becoming a genius

BTDT and still making mistakes daily.

 

[Helge]

Arguing with newcomers to film is not productive. If they have preferences that are different from yours, that's ok. BITD of film dominance, people also made mistakes and figured things out from experience, and that was part of the process. It is helpful to offer factual advice and answer questions on technically difficult subjects, like helping people with exposure problems or beginners at home-developing film. It's not helpful to argue with people because they like plastic cameras or Colorplus film.

No one is talking about arguing.
Just about taking the risk of being called a “gate keeper” or perfectionist or other topical word.

Most of these people have very little idea of what they want and how they want it. They have seen some film photos and seen the magic in them, that is all.

They think they can get the shallow depth of field and good low light capability that someone got with an X-300 with a 1.4 lens and maybe a bounce flash, with a 35mm 2.8 Mju II with direct flash.
When things look like crap, they blame the medium and the environment. Not their own knowledge.

They see great scans all over Instagram, but it’s a mystery how they where made. “Maybe they are cheating?”.

You can fool around for ages without getting anywhere.
It’s like putting a piano in a classroom and expecting Brahms to come out after a while.

Half the time when I offer ideas and advice on composition after having been shown, at best mediocre shots, I get the half insulted “thanks but I’ll manage myself” attitude.
That’s a risk worth taking though.

In a sea of instant knowledge, people have never been less curious and eager to explore.
In photography especially, there is the idea that it’s a free for all, and that anything goes. About having “a good eye” or being lucky.

 

[albireo]

I suspect the real stumbling block with film is the darkroom itself. Youngsters aren't often in a position where they can devote space to a darkroom or convert parts of buildings that don't belong to them, or feel settled enough. Communal/college darkrooms may not be available and can be dispiriting unless there is a tyrant in charge.

I would agree. I used to live for many years in two popular University towns in the UK. Most bachelor-level students would be guaranteed a room in college accommodation (= a shoebox), whereas for most MSc/PhD students, as well as postdoctoral researchers and junior staff employed by the companies in the adjacent science parks, pretty much the only option to live affordably involves flat sharing.

It is common in the UK and elsewhere in urban western Europe for 20-35 year olds to live with other students, or young professionals, and share a communal living room as well as a bathroom, and perhaps if lucky a tiny garden. The idea of taking over what little communal space there is, during day- or nighttime, to engage in lengthy solo sessions of any kind (including darkroom work) would be considered extremely rude and generate conflict, in my experience.

Flat-sharing of the above sort mostly ends when/if people decide to move in with a partner. Then comes another type of flat-sharing, more rental might be involved depending on property cost/availability, babies and toddler join in, and we're back to constraints on time and available space, only of a different kind. Life gets in the way.

Most large cities in continental Europe are similar in this respect. Space is at a premium, rental prices are through the roof, people often move around to pursue their planned study or work careers. In my age group some are married and some have kids, others still live out of a couple of suitcases and move between say Basel, Amsterdam, Stockholm, San Francisco, Oxford, Boston. No time, no space, and perhaps too little money for a darkroom. But possibly space for a Yashica T4 or an OM1N and a couple of rolls of Portra in that suitcase.

So nothing whatsoever to do with digital 'laziness'. It's just that not every film photographer is an art student with a lot of free time to tinker with large gadgets or with easy access to community darkrooms, or someone who has been settled since 1971 and lives in a huge house with a massive basement in the prairies of south-western Minnesota.

 

[Agulliver]

The "gate keeping" is more telling people not to use film if they're buying Color Plus and plastic cameras. "We don't want you in our club as you buy cheap film and that plastic Kodak branded thing".

Showing newbies how to achieve better photographs via technique and gear is educating. how many of us actually set out with an SLR or fully controllable camera, BITD?

 

[VinceInMT]

Lot of young people were raised on video, and many could easily make videos on their phones.…

And they do. I’ve been a judge at our state’s Business Professionals of America (a group for high school aged students) competitions for lots of years, judging video production and digital media. It interesting how the technology has changed over the years, seeing them go from VHS tape, to DVD, to streaming their projects. The latest projects are shot completely on an iPhone and then edited in iMovie. The quality is quite good.

For emerging film-makers, the field is way more accessible than ever due to the reduced cost of the equipment required.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

And they do. I’ve been a judge at our state’s Business Professionals of America (a group for high school aged students) competitions for lots of years, judging video production and digital media. It interesting how the technology has changed over the years, seeing them go from VHS tape, to DVD, to streaming their projects. The latest projects are shot completely on an iPhone and then edited in iMovie. The quality is quite good.

For emerging film-makers, the field is way more accessible than ever due to the reduced cost of the equipment required.

Even us old film folks can do stuff with a cellphone.

Here's a slide and video clip show I put together for a trip to the local fire department training grounds my 55+ community Men's club did. I used a handheld Samsung Galaxy 7.

 

[VinceInMT]

Even us old film folks can do stuff with a cellphone.

Here's a slide and video clip show I put together for a trip to the local fire department training grounds my 55+ community Men's club did. I used a handheld Samsung Galaxy 7.

Very good. Back in the early 2000s I became assistant cross country coach at the high school where I taught and being a photo and techno geek I ran with either a small digital still camera and/or a digital tape video camera. I'd update our web site weekly and at the end of the season I'd compile a highlights video that we'd show at our awards banquet and every runner received a copy. You can view those highlight videos here. Sorry about the compression on some of the early ones:

CodeCooker.com

 

[Cholentpot]

Your memory maybe a bit selective. Even before the internet era, you had plenty of enthusiastic caveman discovers fire types who thought they were instantly great photographic artists. Print magazines like Shutterbug sometimes featured these up and coming "artists." The faster the motor drive, the longer the zoom range, the sharper the "sharpness," the more artistic they thought they were.

Sure, but the majority of people just used film for snapshots. Vast majority of people didn't care, they just needed something to snap photos with.

 

[Pieter12]

Sure, but the majority of people just used film for snapshots. Vast majority of people didn't care, they just needed something to snap photos with.

It wasn't really until more sophisticated digital cameras and then smartphones with decent cameras came to market that a lot of (young) people started getting artsy-fartsy with their photos. The had access to all kinds of digital effects and filters, could do simple manipulation/retouching and compositing. These things were very difficult and time-consuming to do with film and darkroom prints.