Is there a tank for 120 film that doesn't f*****g leak???????? leaking lids nightmare

MattKing said:

I have one of those plastic lids that has cracked, and one that seems to be lasting well.
Although the fact that I cannot successfully load 120 steel reels means that I almost never use my steel (and equivalent plastic) tanks for steel reels.
If I was only using 35mm, I'd seriously think about going back to steel reels.

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When I started (on the early 80's), I really liked the plastic reels as well as the kodak



Used those for both 35mm and 120mm,as well as the Paterson plastic reels, but my father used to sneer on me (he was a photography teacher) saying that serious photographers used steel reels, so eventually moved to steel reels for most of my life (with a brief time I used Paterson tanks that got cracked, probably due to my mishandling).

I've not read every reply to this thread, but, back when I developed a lot of 120 film, I used single and double Nikor stainless-steel tanks with stainless steel lids and caps (metal reels too). Never a leak. As long as the tanks, lids and caps are in good condition and fit well, that would be my recommendation, unless you want to go with Jobo.

Doremus

MattKing said:

I have one of those plastic lids that has cracked, and one that seems to be lasting well.
Although the fact that I cannot successfully load 120 steel reels means that I almost never use my steel (and equivalent plastic) tanks for steel reels.
If I was only using 35mm, I'd seriously think about going back to steel reels.

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Can't speak for stainless steel reels or metal tanks but the top looks to be the same push fit as the Durst top It would seem that a tight push fit top is as leak-proof as any and is better than most other kinds

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

Can't speak for stainless steel reels or metal tanks but the top looks to be the same push fit as the Durst top It would seem that a tight push fit top is as leak-proof as any and is better than most other kinds

pentaxuser

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Until they crack.
I use that lid now to keep the reels from falling out when I move the tanks and reels around.

I'm retired from 3M. We worked with devices that couldn't be allowed to leak (both wet and dry procedures) and we used 3M's Super 33+ flexible tape around any seams with great results. I use the metal covered SS tanks (Brooks in my case) and after loading the film reels, I give it a wrap on the cover edge with this very flexible tape. No leaks and the rolls seem to last forever and stay pliable. It's basically a very flexible electrical tape and leaves no residue.

Dip and dunk.

I'm fully aware of Scotch 33 tape as a sort of makeshift shim material. I always keep it on hand. It has a limited lifespan for such purposes before it starts end peeling on its own (rub it down firmly), but is easily replaced (it DOES leave sticky goo behind). Where I worked as a buyer, we had a 3M direct industrial distributor account for decades - communication between all the seemingly competing divisions was hell to navigate through. But this type of tape is available everywhere. Don't buy substitute brands.

craigclu said:

I'm retired from 3M. We worked with devices that couldn't be allowed to leak (both wet and dry procedures) and we used 3M's Super 33+ flexible tape around any seams with great results. I use the metal covered SS tanks (Brooks in my case) and after loading the film reels, I give it a wrap on the cover edge with this very flexible tape. No leaks and the rolls seem to last forever and stay pliable. It's basically a very flexible electrical tape and leaves no residue.

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I've done this, used this awesome tape, on Nikor tanks. This particular tape is amazing. UV resistant as well, in my younger days would use on TV antenna connections outdoors, rooftop antenna. It would remain pliable for years.

I have a bag of wide rubber bands that I keep just for covering the seam of my steel tanks. They are reusable, clearly. Sadly, the unused ones are aging in storage, and the store I bought them in has shut, so sometime I will need to find somewhere else and buy a new bag.

Dustin McAmera said:

I have a bag of wide rubber bands that I keep just for covering the seam of my steel tanks. They are reusable, clearly. Sadly, the unused ones are aging in storage, and the store I bought them in has shut, so sometime I will need to find somewhere else and buy a new bag.

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If you need strong, large and wide rubberbands, then an inner tube of a car, a scooter, a motor bike or a bicycle is very useful as you can cut the largeness you want. This rubber is of the strongest kind and can stand a lot of 'abuse', friction and heat, otherwise these wouldn't be safe to drive on...

It's usable for a lot of things, I once replaced the brittle rubber band of a lens's focussing ring with piece of a scooter's inner tube!

Now I use these rubber bands on my WISTA 23 roll film backs as these tend to open when moving around in my backpack, the lid's latch does not closes stiff enough.

DREW WILEY said:

I'm fully aware of Scotch 33 tape as a sort of makeshift shim material. I always keep it on hand. It has a limited lifespan for such purposes before it starts end peeling on its own (rub it down firmly), but is easily replaced (it DOES leave sticky goo behind). Where I worked as a buyer, we had a 3M direct industrial distributor account for decades - communication between all the seemingly competing divisions was hell to navigate through. But this type of tape is available everywhere. Don't buy substitute brands.

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I don't use as a shim and realize I had not been very clear regarding how I used the flexy tape. I use it as an outside seal (one-time use), covering the seam on both sides, body and lid. I had given up on plastic lid style tanks long ago and switching to the steel lid designs helped greatly. I hadn't thought to use the tape until I saw it as common practice at work. Here are a couple of shots of a tank today. It keeps everything very dry for me.

Oh. Thanks for clarifying that. And yeah, with short-term usage, it would peel away fine afterwards without leaving a residue.

sperera said:

Seriously.....I have many Paterson tanks and lids and I nearly messed up an important shoot a few days ago as the developer flew out of the tank via the lid - needed up doing like stand developing and shaking the tank up and down....and actually, the negs came out perfect!! I'm especially concerned of getting Blix drops around my bathroom too......no issues with 4 x5 film as I have the superb Stearman Press SP-645 tank that's FINALLY sorted out this problem! BUT 120 film.....wow.....it's always an anxious moment getting the inversions done......

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the only tank without any leaking, I've used is the ars Imagon Lab-Box, a true daylight tank,meaning that even the film loading can be done in daylight.

Several Paterson tanks (old style) since 70's and 80's. I learned how to use them properly. Yes, one has to learn, there is no AI or app for that yet. Photography is a craft.

• For the main (black) lid, close with a sharp rotating motion to create compression of the sealing ring;
• For the top (gray) lid, as stated already several times, burp it, i.e. first (a) press down in the center, to ensure slight negative, not positive pressure, then (b) at the edge to ensure that the rim goes fully down, below the slight depressions (to allow air escape) in the black plastic rim.

This said, in an industrial design, there would be two O-rings, with radial compression, one for each of the seals. Works. Not expensive parts, either.
The AP tanks (mix/match with Paterson) have a better main sealing ring, more like silicone, while the Paterson one is more like Teflon, less compliant. I prefer the Paterson spirals, though.

OP mentioned 100ML "dripping" out. This sounds more like a major rather than minor issue. Recommended "gentle agitation", "figure eights" and "burps" are all on the mark as general guidelines. If you're willing to stick to your gear, the issue is fixable.

FWIW, as an ex-JOBO user, I'm EXTREMELY happy with Paterson tanks and lids. Mostly, their wide use means you have a LOT of choices for alternate reels whereas the more expensive JOBO equipment doesn't really have the same breadth of alternatives. Don't get me wrong: JOBO gear is excellent, and it's bulletproof aspects helped get things on the right keel when I was starting out. But as one who's spent $'s on gear to fix my technique issues.... it's neither ideal nor necessary as a course of action. But yes, it has virtues, but if I'd fixed my technique issues at the start, I'd have saved a lot of $'s. Paterson gets it done, and I like the wide tab AP reels far more than ANY JOBO reel as easy to get my film on to, and I have the pinwheel style reels for these tanks for 4X5 which are equally easiesr to load than JOBO's own 2509's. And so in coming back to film, I worked a number of youtubes, practiced gentle agitation, burping, and all the rest until I could manage it. Took about 10 minutes a day for a few days to get it, and then I'd practice before starting just to refresh as a "warm up". And it just worked, and I think the upside is the ability to use infrequent agitation (3 minute intervals) to reduce grain and get other positive effects.

But if I were to debug this from my own failures, I think there's a place where it is easy to rush the development process focused on the wrong things. In fact, "rushed" is a feeling that can be hard to resist initially, and very detrimental if it sets in.

Specifically, I think it is easy to over-focus on time to the point where the technique otherwise slips. At risk of much ire, I'd suggest focus on the practice of manual agitation to the point where your "leaks" are a few drops. Worry less about feeling rushed to go from one step to another. In fact, in between steps, I try to be orderly, but deliberate.... 'cause picking up the wrong chemical for a given step in the process can sink the whole. You don't generally have to rush here at all.

Let the clock run, but don't be alarmed by it either. Just take your time. Again, focus on being orderly and deliberate rather than precise. Burp that tank, do your 5 or 10 seconds of agitation (or whatever technique you've settled on). And simply allow yourself to do this like a slow and deliberate yoga exercise rather than some manic, Olypmic game of strength and speed. Nothing wrong with the Olympic approach per se if you're getting results you like. But it's not necessary either and can mean your likelihood of error rises. Manage a gentle technique as the first goal, and the precision in times will come along later. Film development is far less precise than textbooks present it to be, and like cooking, "close" is good enough. Yes, I round my clock times to nearby 5's and 10's.... but you could probably do this more if you wanted. Keep notes about what you're doing, review them and solve problems incrementally. Try to be consistent.

I'm self taught at an advanced age, and if I can do it, anyone can. Wish I had a teacher, but the film infrastructure these days is wide, but thin enough that self-taught is likely common. And it's not hard. It's actually kind of fun. Mistakes happen, but they're not fatal either.

But to underscore this, think of the gourmand who notices different ingredients (or claims to) with his/her tongue. They never mention, "Sure tastes like you let it cook 10 seconds longers and stirred it a bit slower." Film is more like this than we think. Spill a drop and you'll never notice the difference. Spill (and lose) 100ML in a 600ML tank, and you're actually missing a LOT of the impact. Results might still be okay.... but actually.... the issue might be that now if you really think it through, your development time for the mixture needs to be extended.... or adjusted in some other similar way. You can do this because the process is fairly organic. But get the technique.... understand the process, and you can adjust the whole for the mistakes and errors we all (or at least I) make and still come out fine most of the time. Also remember that whomever it is that writes up how a wine, beer or other beverage has overtones of peach, oak, etc. is more likely in my mind making up stuff that sounds good... and might be noticeable to 2% of the public. Similarly for my money, all but a few who can objectively describe the precise developer and technique used from viewing a print is probably faking it, too.

blee1996 said:

Close down the lid mostly, then press down on the center of lid, and burp to create negative pressure. And Patterson system 4 tank can be properly sealed without any leaks. I never had any leaks.

Additional note:

- I do have fairly new tanks.
- I only do inversion for developers. For bleach and fix, I use the center twiddle. There is no need for inversion other than developers.

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some agitation is needed for all process steps.

Tape down the SS top as illustrated above and, if really needed, try some plumbers Teflon tape on the threads so a plastic tank or electrical tape or plain Gaffer's tape, not Duck or duct taped which are too strong.

Plastic caps with some soft silicone material around the inside corner of the cap itself should work, or you can just make an entire latex or silicone cap, to replace the original.

My JOBO 1520 has leaked since day one. I thought about buying a new one, but I've just gotten used to it. I wash my hands between agitations. It’s irritating, but it’s been that way since my very first roll.

I wear nitrile gloves while developing film or darkroom printing.
They are much easier to keep clean than unprotected skin.

I'd wear them if I wasn't forced to wear them for those 2 reversal hours, including setup/chem mix time. So I go naked.
I get chems on my hands only when rinsing and handling Paterson lid - so the exposure is minimal, but it is there.

MattKing said:

I wear nitrile gloves while developing film or darkroom printing.
They are much easier to keep clean than unprotected skin.

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Makes sense for film, especially if the tank is leaking. But for darkroom printing, I just use tongs, my hands hardly ever touch the chemicals.

The only tanks I have that rarely leak are my Jobo tanks so the great majority of my development is by rotation. But "rarely" is not the equivalent of "never". It it doesn't usually bother me but I do wear gloves. I used to have one tank that I literally wrapped in a towel whenever I started my inversions. Needless to say it didn't take long for that tank to end up in the waste bin.

hiroh said:

Makes sense for film, especially if the tank is leaking. But for darkroom printing, I just use tongs, my hands hardly ever touch the chemicals.

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But when they do, fingerprint stains - primarily from fixer - seem to appear from nowhere!