Is there a reason to use graded BW paper anymore?

[Mahler_one]

Good suggestions Richard...I shall try the same. The OC is high in the ceiling-at least 8 feet away.

Ed

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I'm using a ceiling mounted 8x10 in OC safelight about 6 ft away from trays. Installed is a 25 watt compact florescent vs the suggested 15 watt bulb.

 

[dancqu]

Red Not Needed

Both Slavich and Emaks are Graded papers.
Both direct the use of red. That should have
been corrected years ago. I've worked with
both under the usual Graded paper safe
lights. Mine are a yellow - orange.

Using Graded? Enjoy using a more
brightly lighted Darkroom. Dan

 

[Ronald Moravec]

To bing up another old idea, contrast can be controlled with flashing and split developers, say a tray of selectol for 60 sec and then dektol for 60 sec.

We can alway intensify negs for more control. Victors is reversible. Selenium is easy.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I found switching from a dichro to a condenser head gave me the increased contrast I needed on my 120 negs. The type of enlarger light source allows one grade difference to play with. There is 1/2 grade difference between Galerie grade 3 and EMAKS grade 3. Using Dektol and a softer developer yields additional control. I'm selecting my negatives for the paper and getting excellent prints from EMAKS/GALERIE. Both papers are neutral in print color. EMAKS is the warmer of the two on a heavier support. Galerie has the brighter whites. Both react well in selenium. I'm very satisfied with my exploration and find EMAKS a strong value. Both graded papers can give you a different (richer) look.

 

[Mahler_one]

Thanks Richard. Which of the two had the greater contrast?

I mainly contact print 8x10 negatives, and my tests with EMAKS were done with a bare bulb ( 120 W) and Amidol. I was trying to compare the EMAKS Grade 2 to Lodima paper, Grade 3. The EMAKS was faster, and had a slighlty greater DMax. If you have the BTZS plotter program I will be pleased to mail you the curves for both papers, as well as a few others...remember, contact printing!

EM

 

[Mahler_one]

I neglected to ask RJ...did either of the papers change color with Selenium toning? As was stated previously, Ilford Vc MG does not have a very impressive response to toning with Selenium.

 

[Mahler_one]

Any problems with fogging? I would certainly prefer the OC safe light so that I can more easily develop with Dektol and Selectol Soft with more control...the red safe light makes judging the print density just a bit more difficult, at least for me.

 

[Mahler_one]

Are any here using Azo type papers including the new Lodima-contact printing?

 

[clayne]

Emaks K-888 is one of the best papers out there if your negs are appropriate for it - and the price is a steal. People need to step off the VC train sometimes and explore other avenues.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

EMAKS grade 3 has 1/2 grade higher contrast than Galerie grade 3. EMAKS grade 2 seems to have a wider change than one grade when compared to EMAKS grade 3. I'm only using grade 3 for both papers. EMAKS is about 1 stop slower than Galerie. EMAKS color when selenium toned 1:20 (3 to 4 min) will cool off from a neutral warm to hints of plum in the shadows. Galerie also cools off. I agree MG IV lacks a tonal shift when toned. Tonal shifts can make a print look richer. As mentioned, I'm not seeing EMAKS graded paper fog while using a 8x10 kodak utility safelight with OC filter 6 ft over the trays. However, I'm careful not to expose EMAKS under a safelight longer than necessary. EMAKS has a nice paper support that drys flatter. There is no quality difference between EMAKS grade 3 and Galerie. Both have rich blacks and nicely stepped mid-tones. That said, each paper is a little different in their contrast curves. Galerie has brighter, cleaner, whites. They have slightly different characteristics. I only print negatives that fit the paper. If I'm off a little in contrast, I switch papers to adjust a 1/2 grade.

 

[dancqu]

Better Yet!

Any problems with fogging? I would certainly prefer the
OC safe light so that I can more easily develop with Dektol
and Selectol Soft with more control...the red safe light makes
judging the print density just a bit more difficult, at least for me.

There is no need to use VC paper safelights if printing with Graded
paper. VC papers are blue and green sensitive. Graded papers are
blue only sensitive. The OC filter is used with VC papers. It filters
out both blue and green from the visual spectrum.

Eliminating green for which the eye is most sensitive causes
a significant decrease in visibility. Yellow to orange safe lights
are appropriate with Graded papers.

I consider the high level of darkroom lighting afforded by
Graded papers a distinct advantage. Especially nice when
Lith printing. Don't handicap your self. Go Graded. Dan

 

[clayne]

However, K-888 does have some sensitivity into the "green" spectrum:

http://www.fotokemika.hr/images/pdf/1180272532-Emaks_k888_G1.pdf

 

[dancqu]

Orange

However, K-888 does have some sensitivity into the
"green" spectrum:

My next order from Freestyle will include Emaks K-888.
I've been using it with yellow-ish orange filters. No problems.
I've three Kodak Brownies mounted under a set of cupboards.
They are spaced across my 5 foot tray counter and are
2 feet above. Very easy to watch the action.

I've not shopped lately but believe it may be difficult to
find safe lights specifically for Graded paper. A shame if
so. The yellows could really pump out the light.

The Slavich and Emaks producers are not doing them selfs
any good by specifying red. By the same token Kodak
for some time specified the OC for Azo; their blue
sensitive only contact speed paper.

 

[brianmquinn]

AZO is such a slow paper it is not fair to compare it's safe light sensitivity to that of other papers.

 

[5stringdeath]

I think the Emaks safelight recommendations may have changed. I know on Freestyle it used to say "red safelight only" but this very morning while shopping I now see:

"Safelight compatibility = red or orange (0C)"

 

[nworth]

Alot depends on your work style. Some people ar used to graded papers, others VC. I like the fine contrast adjustments I can get using the color head with VC, but the graded paper folks do just as well, somehow, through processing technique. The VC emulsions are now very good and quite capable of full tonal rendition. One thing that has only been mentioned by example, however: some excellent papers are only available as graded. If you want the tone, weight, and surface characteristics of those papers, you must learn to use graded paper.

 

[naugastyle]

The Slavich and Emaks producers are not doing them selfs
any good by specifying red.

I'm not worried about this. I use a yellow light and get great results with Emaks.

I recently had to produce 20 11x14s and while it took several sessions, I feel that it might have taken even more if I had to figure out the exposures for multigrade paper. With Emaks #2, #3, Selectol, Dektol and use of flashing, it wasn't as arduous as it could have been...I already knew what the negatives looked like, so I would choose a starting grade and developer, and adjust from there.

I do wonder if it was just that particular batch of negatives that was easier to predict though...some of my recent negatives that I've been printing on RC have required split-grade filtering so I'm not sure how they'd be on Emaks.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I agree with the last two posts. Galerie and EMAKS have there own characteristics. I found it easier to have less choice. I had to select negatives which fit the graded paper contrast curve. Just that step made printing easier. Next, I focused more on burning and dodging and found that Galerie bright whites made up for some of the lack of contrast in low tones. I just printed an area which could use more contrast deeper. It all worked out. There are several ways to interpret a negative. Less can sometimes be more. Concept works in other aspects of life too.

 

[lloyd]

I'm using 2 led red bulbs in reflectors aimed at the ceiling and could probably introduce a third if it were necessary. Very bright: I thus consider safelight illumination to be a non-issue with VC papers. This is one of the brightest darkrooms I've worked in. (I will admit however that the OC filters are probably a bit easier on the eyes tho I think the total level of illumination would have to be lower; ie a trade off.)

Further out on a limb, I recently printed a normal contrast neg on a dozen different papers, both graded and VC (almost everything currently available). Of course this effort then only applies to a normal neg--I did not attempt to look at every paper across all of the contrast grades. My purpose was to look at tonal distribution, print 'color', response to toning, developers, etc. to narrow it all down to a few papers to suit my printing. That being said, my synopsis is this: I did not see any evidence to support the assumption that graded papers have any superiority to the best VC papers (at 'normal' contrast). So given the control offered by VC --contrast changes w/in areas of a print via burning/dodging etc.--and the ability to hone in contrast easily to fractions of a grade--and the convenience/cost of stocking only one box of paper (especially in larger sizes), it's definitely VC for me. Plus the controls used on graded papers--split development, slimt, flashing, etc can be applied to VC papers too for even more control.

Of course I'm not saying that great prints can't be made on graded too (or any of the papers I looked at), but I just didn't see any evidence to support graded papers as being superior. In some special circumstances, perhaps, but I'm not sure what that would be..........if one tailors negs to a given paper.

 

[desi8888]

interesting...

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Lloyd

I'm exploring graded because my favorite VC papers ended production or changed emulsions. I agree VC offers quality and more choice in both availability and contrast control. But.... last night I pulled a quick print on Emaks grade 3. I made three test strips to determine exposure and burn plan. No need to play with filters since I lacked that option. The test strips confirmed the contrast was adequate. In 15 min I got a excellent print. It seemed simple.

There are different ways to interpret the negative and express the print. Graded paper has its limitations which mitigate the occasional indecision on which print (interpretation) is better. We have all gone through the exercise of asking, "which print do you think is better." At times the question is meaningless. The evaluated images are just different.

The area to mentioned again is all papers, VC or graded, have their own unique characteristics. Galerie has a white base, very clean whites, long tonal range, interesting print color which accepts toning and deep blacks. Galerie may be my better choice for landscape exhibition prints vs Fomatone MG Classic. It's the paper's characteristics which become the best reason to explore graded paper.

 

[Rick A]

One of the things I've found with Emaks is that grade filters do have somewhat of an effect on it. My initial results show a decided effect toward softening as well as shifting toward harder. This could be that filters act as a neutral density, but thats not what it looks like.

 

[clayne]

Lloyd, due some comparisons on hard grades and you'll see a difference. VC papers handle contrast curves differently than graded papers - which tend to offer contrast changes across the major tonal areas accurately. VC papers on the other hand tend to peter out when it comes to midtone contrast - that is contrast changes mainly affect the shadows and highlights disproportionately compared to midtones.

 

[lloyd]

In response I should add that I'm not new to bw printing and used graded papers for years, back to Ilfobrom and the original Zone VI paper. I also printed professionally for 6 years with only VC paper. While I certainly don't doubt clayne's comments re contrast, it just hasn't been much of an issue with my work. Perhaps I'm not out at the extremes of contrast range very often. I've found I can control micro contrast to my satisfaction with VC paper. And the ability to burn dodge with filtration is a powerful tool.