Is there a cheap way to do C41

Fatih Ayoglu · Jun 15, 2024

I don’t understand this. You want to cost save on developing. That means you spend your good money for film and obviously don’t want to waste film. But then you try to cut corners here and there, trying to find a cheap way to develop those precious films, which will most likely jeopardise the quality of the negative with bad processing, cross colour etc etc.

Why don’t you buy a small kit and batch process all the films you shoot? Like a Rollei kit for 10 films or Fuji Hunt for 50 films? That way you make sure the quality is consistent and your dear films are saved.

Chemistry is the cheapest item in the darkroom when it comes film developing. The cost of the film but more so the effort you put shooting all those rolls are the real money you are paying

koraks · Jun 15, 2024

Fatih Ayoglu said:
which will most like jeopardise the quality of the negative with bad processing, cross colour etc etc.

My experience is otherwise. I don't think what @Cerebum is trying to do is impossible or will automatically involve risks of poor image quality. Heck, I know it doesn't have to be that way, because I've been doing for years what he's about to do.

Fatih Ayoglu said:
Fuji Hunt for 50 films?

You're not seriously suggesting someone save up 50 films to process in one batch? In my case, that would mean saving up about a year's worth of shooting and then lock myself up in the darkroom for a few days to get it all over with. That sounds horrible.

Fatih Ayoglu · Jun 15, 2024

koraks said:
You're not seriously suggesting someone save up 50 films to process in one batch? In my case, that would mean saving up about a year's worth of shooting and then lock myself up in the darkroom for a few days to get it all over with. That sounds horrible.

I have done it, it is doable but more so the quality is less jeopardised if the films are properly stored, which is in freezer or fridge

Fatih Ayoglu · Jun 15, 2024

koraks said:
My experience is otherwise. I don't think what @Cerebum is trying to do is impossible or will automatically involve risks of poor image quality. Heck, I know it doesn't have to be that way, because I've been doing for years what he's about to do.

I don’t know but I am only assuming you are not choosing to store the chemicals so long that you might give a try after months of last developing. Plus I know you are using top quality chemicals which are really well maintained. Also you (probably) start to deviate from the standard after having enough experience. I have not said it will give poor image quality automatically but certainly the very unnecessary risks are increasing. At the end of the day, once negatives are developed, there is no way to correct them. Why would you risk your negatives if there is a better way of developing them?

Well that’s my 2 cents, obviously everybody is free to do whatever they want to do with their negatives but I’ve seen enough posts here people are asking what’s wrong with their negatives, when they use expired films, or not standard processing methods, or bad chemicals. So just trying to save a new film shooter

koraks · Jun 15, 2024

Fatih Ayoglu said:
I am only assuming you are not choosing to store the chemicals so long that you might give a try after months of last developing

I don't know what that word group means exactly, but I've used Fuji developer way beyond 18 months after mixing it. I use it one shot, but the main batch (12.5L) lasts me a long time, so as a matter of course, when I get to the last bottles, it's quite old. It looks and performs precisely the same as the fresh stuff at that point.

@Cerebum is in the exact same position I found myself in a number of years ago. I tried a couple of things and ultimately settled on the way I work now. I share those insights with other so they can cut the cr*p and hop into something that works right away.

Fatih Ayoglu said:
trying to save a new film shooter

That's well-intended, but I've often seen people trying to "save" others by recommending not doing something. I always feel a little sorry whenever that happens, especially if these people never asked to be "saved" in that particular way and it's debatable whether they're really being "saved" at all.

I'm sorry to be very critical about your intervention, but I really am. Do whatever works well for you and what you like, but please don't attack a system that you've evidently not seen perform in practice.
There's so much conservatism in analog photography (which is probably logical) and a lot of the time it holds people back. I find that a shame.

Fatih Ayoglu · Jun 15, 2024

koraks said:
I don't know what that word group means exactly, but I've used Fuji developer way beyond 18 months after mixing it. I use it one shot, but the main batch (12.5L) lasts me a long time, so as a matter of course, when I get to the last bottles, it's quite old. It looks and performs precisely the same as the fresh stuff at that point.

I meant, “I’m thinking you are not preparing all the chemicals and then develop a roll and after 4-5 months develop another one. Based on what you’ve said, I think you develop regularly and then you also have an idea to check the quality and output. Not to mention you are using 12.5L Fuji kit which is probably different than consumer kits and can be stored longer (maybe?) Also as I know you, based on your input on this forum, you are well studied on the subject and can mitigate the risks and assess the output quality. Am I wrong? ( because I keep asking you questions and following up your recommendations )

Fatih Ayoglu · Jun 15, 2024

koraks said:
That's well-intended, but I've often seen people trying to "save" others by recommending not doing something. I always feel a little sorry whenever that happens, especially if these people never asked to be "saved" in that particular way and it's debatable whether they're really being "saved" at all.

I'm sorry to be very critical about your intervention, but I really am. Do whatever works well for you and what you like, but please don't attack a system that you've evidently not seen perform in practice.
There's so much conservatism in analog photography (which is probably logical) and a lot of the time it holds people back. I find that a shame.

Maybe saving is the wrong term. I don’t know. But OP has mentioned he lost already a film due to bad ID11 keeping, also he is trying to save money on C41 developing. Based on those I thought my well intended feedback might be useful. A Fuji Hunt kit today costs about £120 today and can easily batch process 100 films based on Fuji manual. That’s like £1.2 without risking the negatives that much

koraks · Jun 15, 2024

Fatih Ayoglu said:
I’m thinking you are not preparing all the chemicals and then develop a roll and after 4-5 months develop another one.

There can easily be several weeks between two development sessions. IDK. I don't keep track. 4-5 months is a little long, but 2 months in a slow period? Sure. Moreover, I shoot a lot of ECN2 presently, so my C41 developer sits around idle much of the time. So yeah, what you describe is pretty much what happens. What I don't do, is reuse the same developer, but that's another matter.

Fatih Ayoglu said:
Not to mention you are using 12.5L Fuji kit which is probably different than consumer kits and can be stored longer (maybe?)

I don't think there's much of a difference really. I've spent quite some time going through MSDS's and kits like Rollei Digibase (does that still exist?) and currently Bellini really work very, very similarly to large-scale Fuji chemistry. There's nothing magic about the Fuji stuff other than that it's relatively affordable here on mainland Europe and fairly easily available too.

Fatih Ayoglu said:
OP has mentioned he lost already a film due to bad ID11 keeping

Yeah, the vacuvin incident. I think my warnings against that were sufficient.

Fatih Ayoglu said:
he is trying to save money on C41 developing

Can't blame him. So do I.

Fatih Ayoglu said:
That’s like £1.2 without risking the negatives that much

Yeah, but do you save up 100 films and then process in one go? I don't think so - so probably you either use a smaller kit with a higher cost per roll, or you also are forced to store your developer for an extended period of time.
Again, I can't blame people for trying to save some pennies, and in this particular case, I find that's perfectly feasible, too.
Like I said, there's a lot of conservatism surrounding in particular color processing. I find that a pity, and I try to (with only moderate success, I admit) to not become a part of that problem. So many times I've talked to people who fear doing their own color film or print processing because it's supposed to be expensive, impossible to get good colors, dangerously toxic, unaffordable, doesn't keep well, requires a PhD in chemistry, etc. etc. So sad!

Again, I'm sorry to be critical; I really do appreciate your concern and your best intentions.

Fatih Ayoglu · Jun 15, 2024

koraks said:
Again, I'm sorry to be critical; I really do appreciate your concern and your best intentions.

You really don’t need to be. I didn’t take it personally at all.

My wife says I have thick skin

koraks · Jun 15, 2024

Haha ok, glad to hear that!

albada · Jun 15, 2024

koraks said:
I personally choose to mix all the developer into working strength in one go and then store that in entirely full, glass bottles. This has worked well for me for years.

After developing a roll or two, you will have a partly-full bottle. I assume you transfer that to smaller bottles that are completely full.
Have you tried a air-blocker such as argon gas or a floating lid?

Mark

koraks · Jun 15, 2024

albada said:
After developing a roll or two, you will have a partly-full bottle. I assume you transfer that to smaller bottles that are completely full.

Yes, that's correct.

albada said:
Have you tried a air-blocker such as argon gas or a floating lid?

I don't have confidence in these for C41 developer that needs to be stored for weeks or even months that way.

brbo · Jun 16, 2024

Fatih Ayoglu said:
I meant, “I’m thinking you are not preparing all the chemicals and then develop a roll and after 4-5 months develop another one.

I've been doing exactly this for the past 15 years. My negatives scan and print just fine.

Fatih Ayoglu · Jun 16, 2024

brbo said:
I've been doing exactly this for the past 15 years. My negatives scan and print just fine.

Could you please tell me which chemicals do you use, and how exactly you preserve them?

That might help a lot of us (including me)

PS I’ve seen you are using 5l kit. So I am. Do you speed are them into smaller bottles and go through each bottle or do you keep 5l developer in a airless bottle and put the used chemical back?

brbo · Jun 16, 2024

I've now done basically all of the above + self replenished use.

1. At first I used to split the 5L kit (FujiHunt C-41 X-Press) into five 1L kits (I used glass bottles of various sizes for concentrates and Protectan to displace the air in the bottles) and 1L Coke bottles for working solutions. After I developed a roll or two (I use Jobo 1500 tank) I poured the developer back into the 1L bottle, squeeze out the air and put a not on the bottle how many rolls I developed (I used that info to extend the developing time for next session).
2. Same as the 2. except that I used developer one-shot so I had to wait until I had 2 rolls ready for development since 1500 tank requires 240ml minimum whether you develop one or two rolls. Ofter first session I transferred developer working solution into one 500ml and one 250ml Coke bottle...
3. I mixed 5L of working solutions, split them into 1L Coke bottles and then used them one shot.
4. Same as 3. except that I don't use it one-shot but replenish the 1L of working solution with 125ml for every roll developed.

As said, all of the above gives me negatives that scan and print fine. I don't take "fine" lightly. I've done it all, C-41 in ECN-2, ECN-2 in C-41, ECN-2 in ECN-2... and I'd say C-41 in C-41 is the only thing that gives fine prints. Extended development of ECN-2 films in ECN-2 developer can give passable RA-4 prints, not always, but most of the time. I don't think it is worth my time printing from ECN-2 film, though...

But one thing is sure, at least Fuji C-41 chemistry is quite tough, there were times when it took me well over a year to finish the 5L kit and everything was fine all the way to the end.

RysanKarel · Jun 16, 2024

Hi. I might need some help with Agfacolor CT13 2x8mm from 1968... )) it is just for pleasure and play

blee1996 · Jun 16, 2024

I have been using Bellini 1L kits for a while now, and it seems I will upgrade to 2.5L or 5L soon since my volume has increased.

Right now the only 3-bath kit in stock in the US is 2.5L Jobo kit. I think I will give it a go.

5L Fuji Hunt Press Kit is on back-order everywhere, and ETA of August.

koraks · Jun 16, 2024

RysanKarel said:
Hi. I might need some help with Agfacolor CT13 2x8mm from 1968... )) it is just for pleasure and play

That's not something you'd want to run through a regular C41 process. Best continue that part of the discussion in the other thread you posted in here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/posts/2804401/
Thanks!

Sirius Glass · Jun 17, 2024

I can develop C421 films cheaply enough. My problem is taking the time to set up the darkroom to print each negative for a few rolls of 120 or 135 film. I just take the film to Samys and have them develop and print each roll.

Cerebum · Jun 17, 2024

blee1996 said:
I have been using Bellini 1L kits for a while now, and it seems I will upgrade to 2.5L or 5L soon since my volume has increased.

Right now the only 3-bath kit in stock in the US is 2.5L Jobo kit. I think I will give it a go.

5L Fuji Hunt Press Kit is on back-order everywhere, and ETA of August.

Its looking likely that Bellini will be my kit of choice. How menu rolls do you get from 1l?

Re the Fuji, I have read that the Rollei kit is Fuji chem. My friend uses it all the time and loves it.

Re other stuff. I was watching a lot on eBay, Tetenal RA-4 photopearls, ilford Cibachrome and tetenal c41 phototabs. All NIB. The Cibachrome dates it at 2012 at the latest. The description was minimal yet someone paid £39.99 .... Seems a bit bonkers to me. Maybe it will work and it is a bargain, but its not a gamble I would choose.

blee1996 · Jun 17, 2024

I get 16 good rolls out of the Bellini C41 1L kits, then I use the chemical for weird cross processing stuff.

Cerebum · Jun 17, 2024

blee1996 said:
I get 16 good rolls out of the Bellini C41 1L kits, then I use the chemical for weird cross processing stuff.

Cant say fairer than that

BHuij · Jun 17, 2024

Cerebum said:
Its looking likely that Bellini will be my kit of choice. How menu rolls do you get from 1l?

Re the Fuji, I have read that the Rollei kit is Fuji chem. My friend uses it all the time and loves it.

Re other stuff. I was watching a lot on eBay, Tetenal RA-4 photopearls, ilford Cibachrome and tetenal c41 phototabs. All NIB. The Cibachrome dates it at 2012 at the latest. The description was minimal yet someone paid £39.99 .... Seems a bit bonkers to me. Maybe it will work and it is a bargain, but its not a gamble I would choose.

Cibachrome chems aren't any use without the specialized paper. I was under the impression Christopher Burkett had virtually all of the remaining stock in deep freeze.

jazzmandjango · Jun 17, 2024

Cerebum said:
I recently shot some Ektar and am working through a roll of Phoenix. I priced up developing and scanning and remembered why I don't shoot colour, but, I could if I could find a cost effective way of doing C41 that doesn't require a huge outlay. My problem with the kits is that I am unlikely to shoot more than a couple of rolls of colour per month. Is there a convenient way to develop colour that won't die before I get my monies worth?

Also, I know where I can maybe get some tetenal, c41 colourtabs, but I don't know what they are. Any wisdom is, as always, gratefully recieved

If you do your own scanning you can usually find a lab to process c41 for under $10 a roll

Cerebum · Jun 19, 2024

Has anyone done vision 3 with the Bellini kit? They make a big thing about not presoaking so I was wondering how you got on

Is there a cheap way to do C41

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