Is there a cheap way to do C41

[BHuij]

I started mixing my own ECN-2 chemistry recently (it works fine on C-41 films, excellent on ECN-2 films, and surprisingly well on E6 films when paired with a B&W first developer). The nice thing about doing it DIY is that you can pre-measure small, one-shot batches of developer that will keep more or less indefinitely in powder form, so you no longer have to worry about shelf life. Stop/bleach/fixer seem to last in their liquid form on the shelf more or less indefinitely.

I too am a fairly low volume shooter. Maybe 1 or 2 rolls of color film a month on average. I was tired of saving up 12 rolls of film before buying a kit and using it to exhaustion. This way works great for me. It costs me about $1.50 USD to mix up 250ml of developer. That's enough for 3 rolls in terms of chemical exhaustion, but it's so inexpensive that I don't feel bad using it for a single roll, even a roll of 24 exposures. I just dump the pre-measured powders into distilled water, shake it up for a minute or so, and then put it in the water jacket to get up to temp alongside the prebath (for ECN-2 films), stop, bleach, and fixer. After an hour or so everything is sitting at 105°F, I can develop my film, hang it to dry, and close up shop.

 

[Cerebum]

I started mixing my own ECN-2 chemistry recently (it works fine on C-41 films, excellent on ECN-2 films, and surprisingly well on E6 films when paired with a B&W first developer). The nice thing about doing it DIY is that you can pre-measure small, one-shot batches of developer that will keep more or less indefinitely in powder form, so you no longer have to worry about shelf life. Stop/bleach/fixer seem to last in their liquid form on the shelf more or less indefinitely.

I too am a fairly low volume shooter. Maybe 1 or 2 rolls of color film a month on average. I was tired of saving up 12 rolls of film before buying a kit and using it to exhaustion. This way works great for me. It costs me about $1.50 USD to mix up 250ml of developer. That's enough for 3 rolls in terms of chemical exhaustion, but it's so inexpensive that I don't feel bad using it for a single roll, even a roll of 24 exposures. I just dump the pre-measured powders into distilled water, shake it up for a minute or so, and then put it in the water jacket to get up to temp alongside the prebath (for ECN-2 films), stop, bleach, and fixer. After an hour or so everything is sitting at 105°F, I can develop my film, hang it to dry, and close up shop.

OK, that sounds brilliant. Do you have a link to the recipe?

 

[Cerebum]

I was just reading about C41 film in ECN-2 and it suggests you lose some of the saturation. That's a shame, I was getting all rev'd up

 

[BHuij]

I was just reading about C41 film in ECN-2 and it suggests you lose some of the saturation. That's a shame, I was getting all rev'd up

I'm using the recipes from this blog post.

...with a few modification. I'm not messing with sulfuric acid stop or sulfuric acid in my bleach. Regular old Kodak indicator stop bath at normal B&W dilution for the stop. So far it has not been a problem. I am also entirely skipping the difficult-to-source Kodak proprietary ingredients (anti calcium, anti foggant, etc.). Also hasn't been an issue so far.

As for the saturation, I haven't noticed, but I also haven't done an A/B test. I use a hybrid workflow for color film anyway, so if the saturation needs a bump, that's easy to do in post. If you're planning on RA4 printing or something it could be an issue.

That said, if ECN-2 isn't the right move for you, I suspect the same concept of just using powdered chemicals to make your own C-41 developer/stop/bleach/fix (or developer/blix or whatever you want to use) is probably doable too. You'd need CD-4 instead of CD-3 to make "proper" C-41 chemicals, but my point is, DIY options are frequently the most cost-effective, especially for low-volume shooters.

 

[blee1996]

If it is someone's very first time trying color development, it is probably best to go with a simple liquid kit like Bellini and try it out first.

It might make things much more complicated if we go down the road of cross-processing in ECN-2 chemical and even mixing your own chemical. You might save a few pounds, but adding so many variables to a new adventure might not be worth it.

 

[brbo]

I started mixing my own ECN-2 chemistry recently (it works fine on C-41 films, excellent on ECN-2 films, and surprisingly well on E6 films when paired with a B&W first developer). The nice thing about doing it DIY is that you can pre-measure small, one-shot batches of developer that will keep more or less indefinitely in powder form, so you no longer have to worry about shelf life. Stop/bleach/fixer seem to last in their liquid form on the shelf more or less indefinitely.

I too am a fairly low volume shooter. Maybe 1 or 2 rolls of color film a month on average. I was tired of saving up 12 rolls of film before buying a kit and using it to exhaustion. This way works great for me. It costs me about $1.50 USD to mix up 250ml of developer. That's enough for 3 rolls in terms of chemical exhaustion, but it's so inexpensive that I don't feel bad using it for a single roll, even a roll of 24 exposures. I just dump the pre-measured powders into distilled water, shake it up for a minute or so, and then put it in the water jacket to get up to temp alongside the prebath (for ECN-2 films), stop, bleach, and fixer. After an hour or so everything is sitting at 105°F, I can develop my film, hang it to dry, and close up shop.

That still seems like a lot of work. I mix 5L of C-41 and use it within 1-2 years. All I have to do is keep the developer in air tight bottles. C-41 film is too expensive to put it in ECN-2 chemistry and I like the fact that it won't fade and can easily be printed from in darkroom when it's been developed correctly.

 

[BHuij]

Whatever floats your boat. I'm happy with my results from C-41 cross processed in ECN-2, but the real reason I decided to start making my own ECN-2 instead of DIY C-41 is because my color negative film of choice is Vision3 anyway.

 

[cmacd123]

also consider using brown Glass bottles of the right size. Plastic is all over the map as to it's ability to keep out Oxigen. Glass will NOT let Air in or out except at the closure.

 

[Cerebum]

I'm using the recipes from this blog post.

...with a few modification. I'm not messing with sulfuric acid stop or sulfuric acid in my bleach. Regular old Kodak indicator stop bath at normal B&W dilution for the stop. So far it has not been a problem. I am also entirely skipping the difficult-to-source Kodak proprietary ingredients (anti calcium, anti foggant, etc.). Also hasn't been an issue so far.

As for the saturation, I haven't noticed, but I also haven't done an A/B test. I use a hybrid workflow for color film anyway, so if the saturation needs a bump, that's easy to do in post. If you're planning on RA4 printing or something it could be an issue.

That said, if ECN-2 isn't the right move for you, I suspect the same concept of just using powdered chemicals to make your own C-41 developer/stop/bleach/fix (or developer/blix or whatever you want to use) is probably doable too. You'd need CD-4 instead of CD-3 to make "proper" C-41 chemicals, but my point is, DIY options are frequently the most cost-effective, especially for low-volume shooters.

I have to admit the thought of mixing chemicals is a little bit daunting. I will probably try the ECN-2 at some point though, because it is much more straight forward than C41, and there is a good chance that Vision will be my colour film of choice, because of its bulk loading possibilities.

 

[Cerebum]

If it is someone's very first time trying color development, it is probably best to go with a simple liquid kit like Bellini and try it out first.

It might make things much more complicated if we go down the road of cross-processing in ECN-2 chemical and even mixing your own chemical. You might save a few pounds, but adding so many variables to a new adventure might not be worth it.

The Bellini is very much in the frame. I believed the shelf life of C41 was very short but this thread and its brilliant replies have really opened my eyes.

 

[lamerko]

Mixing C-41 chemistry is no more difficult than ECN-2 chemistry. Instead of CD-3, there is CD-4. There are two more exotic chemicals in the formula - DTPA salt which can be omitted if using distilled/deionized water and Hydroxylamine Sulfate (HAS) which is a preservative - can be omitted if doing SINGLE SHOT developer but still good to have it as an optimization. It's not hard to come by, it's just a bit more expensive, but you don't need large quantities.
On the other hand, the ECN-2 process also has exotic chemicals - AF-2000 and ATMP salt. The first can be omitted without thinking about it, the second is similar to DTPA salt - you miss it if distilled/deionized water is used (from personal experience, in a well-sealed bottle the shelf life is more than a month). The interesting thing is that in the ECN-2 process there is no preservative as in C-41 - I have to make three samples without preservative - a week, a month, three months. Kodak claims that without HAS they observed a pH change (oxidation) after 24 hours, but maybe it's not that bad.
About the contrast and density of the negatives in ECN-2 chemistry - in my opinion, there is a little exaggeration. Indeed ECN-2 chemistry is intended for low contrast, but remember that Vision3 films are low contrast. However, if the processing time is increased to 3:45-4:00 min, they become quite acceptable. If you remove some or all of the bromide, the cross result with C-41 films will not be any different in terms of contrast. Some micro amount of iodide may be needed to compensate, but I wouldn't bother.

 

[Cerebum]

Mixing C-41 chemistry is no more difficult than ECN-2 chemistry. Instead of CD-3, there is CD-4. There are two more exotic chemicals in the formula - DTPA salt which can be omitted if using distilled/deionized water and Hydroxylamine Sulfate (HAS) which is a preservative - can be omitted if doing SINGLE SHOT developer but still good to have it as an optimization. It's not hard to come by, it's just a bit more expensive, but you don't need large quantities.
On the other hand, the ECN-2 process also has exotic chemicals - AF-2000 and ATMP salt. The first can be omitted without thinking about it, the second is similar to DTPA salt - you miss it if distilled/deionized water is used (from personal experience, in a well-sealed bottle the shelf life is more than a month). The interesting thing is that in the ECN-2 process there is no preservative as in C-41 - I have to make three samples without preservative - a week, a month, three months. Kodak claims that without HAS they observed a pH change (oxidation) after 24 hours, but maybe it's not that bad.
About the contrast and density of the negatives in ECN-2 chemistry - in my opinion, there is a little exaggeration. Indeed ECN-2 chemistry is intended for low contrast, but remember that Vision3 films are low contrast. However, if the processing time is increased to 3:45-4:00 min, they become quite acceptable. If you remove some or all of the bromide, the cross result with C-41 films will not be any different in terms of contrast. Some micro amount of iodide may be needed to compensate, but I wouldn't bother.

This is fascinating stuff. I love the idea of making my own (I get huge satisfaction from caffenol lol). Whilst I may buy a kit first time, I have this resource for batch two and can start gathering chemicals. Thank you so much.

 

[MattKing]

The Bellini is very much in the frame.

Clearly I have been watching too much UK crime drama, because this made me think you intended to go out and arrest it!

 

[BHuij]

Iamerko is correct - the "exotic" ingredients in ECN-2 I have found to be unnecessary, specifically because I'm using distilled water and developing one-shot rather than trying to store my developer after mixing.

I have found I get great results developing C-41 films for 5 minutes (compared to 3 for ECN-2 films). But again, I'm not trying to sell you on ECN-2 if you're only shooting C-41 films. Just the concept of mixing your own... it's not as scary or difficult as it would seem, and the cost savings are significant.

 

[Cerebum]

Clearly I have been watching too much UK crime drama, because this made me think you intended to go out and arrest it!

Lols

 

[neilt3]

Usually I wait until I have 10-15 rolls to develop and do them in a batch , using up the full developer kit in one go for C41 .
B&W I mix up some rodinal as and when needed .
If I want some colour film developing before I've a full batch needed doing , I drop it off at a lab .
135 I used to take to out local Max Spielman , but the quality has seriously dropped , probably from lack if use and and old mix in the tank .
120 I've had to send away .
I've recently found Advanced photolab in Manchester , who do 135 and 120 .
So if I need a few doing , I call into town and there ready in an hour .
They can scan as well , prices are good , though I can't remember the price for each .

Advanced Photo | Manchester

Advanced Photo, Manchester, United Kingdom. 223 likes. 1 Hour Film processing (35mm and 120 medium format) on site, Developing, Scanning, Printing and digi

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I think they'll do postal drop offs as well .
Negatives are handed back to you , and the scans are obtained via an email link to where there stored online .

Only used them a couple of times , but have no complaints.

 

[Cerebum]

OK, bottles bought, tray sourced, which is the best kit for longevity? My friend uses the Rollei kit which I believe is rebranded Fuji chemicals. Another possibility is Bellini. Do they all last for months so long as the bottle is sealed, or are there ones that fall off a cliff quite early on?

 

[koraks]

I'm afraid it'll be virtually impossible to get a good answer on that. I expect that Bellini's chemistry will behave similarly to Fuji's in terms of longevity.

One word of caution - I would not rely on a system where you mix developer as you need it, leaving the concentrates in their original bottles in the interim. The concentrate that contains the actual developer is prone to oxidization and as soon as the bottle is opened and a little amount is taken from it, this process will start. There's a little sulfite in that concentrate as well, but not much. This sulfite protects the developer until it runs out, but the sulfate also plays a role during development (it prevents excess dye formation), so if it is sacrificed to protect the developing agent, you're still working with an off-spec developer. I personally choose to mix all the developer into working strength in one go and then store that in entirely full, glass bottles. This has worked well for me for years.

The bleach concentrate can be kept in a partially full, plastic bottle. It'll do fine that way. The fixer concentrate also should be protected against oxidization so it doesn't sulfur out, although generally C41 fixer seems to fare a lot better than B&W fixer.

 

[Cerebum]

I'm afraid it'll be virtually impossible to get a good answer on that. I expect that Bellini's chemistry will behave similarly to Fuji's in terms of longevity.

One word of caution - I would not rely on a system where you mix developer as you need it, leaving the concentrates in their original bottles in the interim. The concentrate that contains the actual developer is prone to oxidization and as soon as the bottle is opened and a little amount is taken from it, this process will start. There's a little sulfite in that concentrate as well, but not much. This sulfite protects the developer until it runs out, but the sulfate also plays a role during development (it prevents excess dye formation), so if it is sacrificed to protect the developing agent, you're still working with an off-spec developer. I personally choose to mix all the developer into working strength in one go and then store that in entirely full, glass bottles. This has worked well for me for years.

The bleach concentrate can be kept in a partially full, plastic bottle. It'll do fine that way. The fixer concentrate also should be protected against oxidization so it doesn't sulfur out, although generally C41 fixer seems to fare a lot better than B&W fixer.

After reading that the mixed dev lasts anything up to ten months, I kinda decided to do that rather than gamble with my ability to calculate and measure small quantities. I have a glass bottle and vacuum stoppers, that'll do nicely for the dev. I also have some plastic bottles on the way. I use steel tanks for my mono devs and will be using my Patersons for colour. It's all falling into place rather nicely, but it is mainly thanks to this thread and members knowledge, wiping away my incorrect assumptions

 

[koraks]

vacuum stoppers

Like vacuvin? Those are not very useful. Regular screw caps and full bottles so that there's no air in them form the best solution.

 

[Cerebum]

Like vacuvin? Those are not very useful. Regular screw caps and full bottles so that there's no air in them form the best solution.

See, I didn't know that. I bought it when I started using ID-11 because I thought it was a wise move, but the ID-11 still died unexpectedly, costing me a film. I love the negs from ID-11, but i use liquid developers because they just last and last. As for the c41, I have some proper plastic chemical bottles on the way (4x1l), with good screw lids, so that will do the job

 

[koraks]

proper plastic chemical bottles

You need PET or glass for the developer. If the bottles turn out to be PP or HDPE, don't use them for the developer.
PET soda/water bottles work well, in generally. Take a trip to your local Tesco's and get a 6-pack of 500ml water bottles for £2 if you want something cheap. Or get a couple of glass bottles in various sizes with good fitting screw caps if you want extra insurance.

The problem with the vacuvin system is that it relies on people perceiving "vacuum" as an absolute thing. They believe you can "suck the air out" and then it'll be "a vacuum" inside. In reality, a vacuvin will allow you to remove maybe half the air inside the bottle (if you're lucky), and it'll leak back in the days/weeks after that. This is also why your wine really doesn't keep all that well if you use a vacuvin; you gain maybe a day or two compared to simply putting the cap/cork back on/in. It's not a very useful system and its success seems to rely more on its appeal than its real-world performance.

 

[Cerebum]

You need PET or glass for the developer. If the bottles turn out to be PP or HDPE, don't use them for the developer.
PET soda/water bottles work well, in generally. Take a trip to your local Tesco's and get a 6-pack of 500ml water bottles for £2 if you want something cheap. Or get a couple of glass bottles in various sizes with good fitting screw caps if you want extra insurance.

The problem with the vacuvin system is that it relies on people perceiving "vacuum" as an absolute thing. They believe you can "suck the air out" and then it'll be "a vacuum" inside. In reality, a vacuvin will allow you to remove maybe half the air inside the bottle (if you're lucky), and it'll leak back in the days/weeks after that. This is also why your wine really doesn't keep all that well if you use a vacuvin; you gain maybe a day or two compared to simply putting the cap/cork back on/in. It's not a very useful system and its success seems to rely more on its appeal than its real-world performance.

The bottles are HDPE. Does that react to the dev? And are they OK for the rest of the stuff? I always have the glass bottle for the dev

 

[neilt3]

It might have already been mentioned here or you might already know , but if you want to remove as much air out of a wide necked glass bottle where there's an air space above the developer, put glass marbles in the bottle to top it up .

 

[koraks]

The bottles are HDPE. Does that react to the dev?

No, it's permeable to oxygen. I tried storing C41 developer in HDPE and it degraded noticeably faster than the same batch of chemistry stored in glass. It was OK for a couple of months though.

And are they OK for the rest of the stuff?

Yeah, good enough; don't worry.