Is the film craze dead?

[Cholentpot]

Their money is just as good as anyone else's.

Just don't expect Ebay prices everywhere.

 

[MattKing]

As busy as this site can sometimes get, it does not provide a really large market of potential buyers and potential sellers.
So I wouldn't consider trends here as being reliably indicative of the market around the world.
It is probably also important to remember that the relatively recently introduced anti-spam and anti-scam restrictions on new users' access to the Classifieds reduce the effectiveness of the Classifieds when it comes to people who are new to Photrio.

 

[Rob Skeoch]

I think the resurgence of film is likely over.
The Instagram and social media influencers have moved on in my view. Film is slow to use and doesn't play well with the idea of "Instagram" since the processing takes away the Insta part of things.
One thing this group did get done was convince Leica to bring back the M6. No pro photographers were asking for the M6 to come back, they could easily use the MP or more likely a M10.... or even more likely a Sony digital wonder. Those that are much cooler than I'll ever be thought the M6 was the greatest, pushed up the used costs, and Leica jumped on the opportunity.
I think used Leica M6 prices have taken quite a hit after this.... although people can ask for whatever amount they want, it's the actual selling price that indicates the value.
A second thing that makes me think it's over is main stream media reporting on it. By the time something hits the main stream media the early adopters and innovators have already moved on. What we have now are the 'laggards' who were told film is the greatest and are just getting around to trying it. The second group we have are the same old boys who always shot film and are likely part of this forum. They never stopped using film and likely continue using film at about the same pace as always. I'm also in this group.
For the most part the resurgence in film was 35mm related, not so much with medium format. When photographers used film and made prints, everyone saw the advantage of larger negatives and medium format was part of being a photographer. Now, since people are scanning and viewing on a computer, 35mm is all that's needed, and with the lower and slower volume of film going through the cameras, people have rediscovered the rangefinder. If current film users were actual pro photographers, not photography enthusiasts, there would be a great demand for cameras like the F6 and F5 that had modern features, not the M6, which was out of date when it came out in 1984.... Of course I bought my first two in 1985 when I worked at the newspaper but they were always a labour of love.

 

[logan2z]

I think used Leica M6 prices have taken quite a hit after this.... although people can ask for whatever amount they want, it's the actual selling price that indicates the value.

For what it's worth, Leica Store Miami seems to think that used (albeit CLA'd and finder-upgraded) M6s are worth as much as the new M6. Time will tell if these actually sell at these prices. I don't personally see any reason to buy a used M6 for the same price as a brand new one.

Used Leica M6 TTL 0.72, black chrome with MP Finder - Recent Leica Wetzlar CLA

leicastoremiami.com

Used Leica M6 0.72, black chrome with MP Finder - Recent Leica Wetzlar CLA

leicastoremiami.com

 

[neilt3]

Yes and when you read a listing for a "mint" lens and down below it says "fungus and hazing but does not affect picture quality."

That's like reading an ad in a personal web site: "Previously married. Slightly used."

Well , hopefully the fungus cleared up , maybe best to avoid that website then !

 

[Edgy01]

The truth is going through a 450 page camera manual to figure out menus is enough to make any sane photographer ready to blow his brains out.

That’s why I prefer a good old film camera. There are too many options in digital cameras, particularly the Japanese ones, where it appears they want to give you every option anyone could dream up.

 

[Roger Cole]

There's a point when " too many cameras" becomes obsessive compulsive disorder.
A person has to decide when to say enough.

It's only a "disorder" if it interferes with your life or is something you want to change but can't.

I sometimes say, "I'm oh-see-not-dee because it's not a disorder if I LIKE being this way." And I kind of mean that.

 

[Duceman]

Just don't expect Ebay prices everywhere.

No, for that, need to go to Etsy.

 

[Ian Grant]

As busy as this site can sometimes get, it does not provide a really large market of potential buyers and potential sellers.
So I wouldn't consider trends here as being reliably indicative of the market around the world.
It is probably also important to remember that the relatively recently introduced anti-spam and anti-scam restrictions on new users' access to the Classifieds reduce the effectiveness of the Classifieds when it comes to people who are new to Photrio.

You are right.

Let's look another way, the girl who manages my local Real Ale house is a keen film photographer, she shoots Polaroids, and with an Olympus OM10, as well as an Olympus Trip. She shoots C41 and uses a lab.

The Olympus Trip is her favourite, but it broke, so she asked me to look at it, last Thursday evening It's toast, the take-up spool gear has failed. A friend asked what's that camera, so I explained, he said I have one almost unused in its box, she can have it. She was concerned that they sell for a lot of money.

However, a quick check on eBay's sold prices show that's not the case, if lucky £16 but average £30-£40, yes a few black versions sell for much more, but they are rarer. But what surprised me was how many were selling.

My experience is Wanted adverts work especially well here. Although I have built a 2nd 5x4 LF kit from Sales posts as well.

Ian

 

[Don_ih]

Ebay is where the PT Barnum customers hang out.

Like it or not, the ebay sold listings represent the current global average sold value for pretty much anything used that fits in a box and can be shipped. That is definitely the case with cameras. If the last ten Hasselblads with an 80mm lens averaged a price of $3000, that's what they're worth today. So that's what you can ask without seeming to be asking anything out of the ordinary. And you may be a sucker spending $3000 on it, but you really can't expect to pay any less right now.

 

[Pieter12]

Many legitimate resellers do business through eBay, such as KEH, Roberts Camera, Samy's, etc. Like anything on the internet, you have to look at what the source is.

 

[Cholentpot]

Like it or not, the ebay sold listings represent the current global average sold value for pretty much anything used that fits in a box and can be shipped. That is definitely the case with cameras. If the last ten Hasselblads with an 80mm lens averaged a price of $3000, that's what they're worth today. So that's what you can ask without seeming to be asking anything out of the ordinary. And you may be a sucker spending $3000 on it, but you really can't expect to pay any less right now.

There are other hobbies that run the same gauntlet. One specifically that has many parallels to photography but I won't mention because it gets under peoples skin.

In that hobby/lifestyle there are the big clearing-house websites that if you poke around, things seem to be going for one price but out in the real world it's not worth anything near that. If I were to meet for a face to face sale of one of these very useful tools and asked for a usefultoolbroker.com prices I'd get a look like I'm nuts. I suspect there's a large subset of people out there who really don't care much about the price and just want the thing. Whether it be a camera or a kinetic force chemically expelling object.

There's always a deal to be had. On websites where the users tend to be a little more seasoned people won't necessarily pay Ebay or usefuldefensiveobject.com prices. Either they already own enough cameras or inert lumps of metal or they know the true street value.

Case in point are a specific brand of guitar stomp box effect pedals. There's one that was going new for about $60 last week and used basically giving away. A popular 'tuber did a comparison of the cheap pedal to a supposed limited hand made $6000 pedal and lo and behold the cheap pedal is now going for $1k+ prices.

Today I can walk into a guitar store or pawnshop and pick up that cheap pedal for $25.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Michael - why would I regret having a good stash of sheet film in my freezer which I bought at the third or fourth of the going rate now? It will probably keep me going into my 80's and still be perfectly usable.

And as far as Michael Smith goes, what ULF shooter wouldn't love to have Super-XX available again if that were possible?

There are some serious printmakers hanging around this forum. Not everything is about owning the latest rinky-dink rubber bathtub duck equipped with a miniature digital camera behind one of its plastic eyeballs.

 

[Duceman]

There are other hobbies that run the same gauntlet. One specifically that has many parallels to photography but I won't mention because it gets under peoples skin.

In that hobby/lifestyle there are the big clearing-house websites that if you poke around, things seem to be going for one price but out in the real world it's not worth anything near that. If I were to meet for a face to face sale of one of these very useful tools and asked for a usefultoolbroker.com prices I'd get a look like I'm nuts. I suspect there's a large subset of people out there who really don't care much about the price and just want the thing. Whether it be a camera or a kinetic force chemically expelling object.

There's always a deal to be had. On websites where the users tend to be a little more seasoned people won't necessarily pay Ebay or usefuldefensiveobject.com prices. Either they already own enough cameras or inert lumps of metal or they know the true street value.

Case in point are a specific brand of guitar stomp box effect pedals. There's one that was going new for about $60 last week and used basically giving away. A popular 'tuber did a comparison of the cheap pedal to a supposed limited hand made $6000 pedal and lo and behold the cheap pedal is now going for $1k+ prices.

Today I can walk into a guitar store or pawnshop and pick up that cheap pedal for $25.

I'm also in the usefultool hobby, and I agree that there is oftentimes wide latitude between the ask and buy. And there's a reason why, in the hobby, it's sometimes referred to as usefultooljoker.com.

 

[Don_ih]

lo and behold the cheap pedal is now going for $1k+ prices

That is the point. It's selling for that price. If you go to a place that sells it to you for 1/20th of that price, then that person is selling it in the wrong place. You can then sell that thing for the higher price - people do it all the time with cameras.
Facebook marketplace prices for cameras are typically much higher than ebay prices - but no one knows how much people eventually get for them.

 

[foc]

Many people are making photo books today rather than printing separate photos and putting them in albums.

That is very true but there is also a market for the traditional slip photo album. My son has a website selling traditional photo albums and he has never been so busy. So some people are still printing their photos and putting them in old-school albums

 

[Cholentpot]

I'm also in the usefultool hobby, and I agree that there is oftentimes wide latitude between the ask and buy. And there's a reason why, in the hobby, it's sometimes referred to as usefultooljoker.com.

Yes, so when someone tells me that at gonebroker.com this particular Burleigh & Stronginthearm goes for x amount and I'm like 'I have a Burleigh & Stronginthearm M&P and there's no way you're going to get one at that price unless is new in the box with four extra high capacity clip-o-zines and from a limited run out of Mordor.'

People act like these things are rare when in reality millions of them were made and chances are someone has an unused one sitting in a nightstand or glove box. 'I know what I got' Right.

That is the point. It's selling for that price. If you go to a place that sells it to you for 1/20th of that price, then that person is selling it in the wrong place. You can then sell that thing for the higher price - people do it all the time with cameras.
Facebook marketplace prices for cameras are typically much higher than ebay prices - but no one knows how much people eventually get for them.

The Retail Outlet of Samuel Ashkynase is not selling the Terrible Simian fuzzulator box for three grand. They'll have it in stock for $59.99.

To be realistic, the vast majority of photographers do not NEED a specific kind of film camera. For paid work I NEED a specific line of digital camera. If the price gets jacked up either I find a deal or I'll have to shell out and pay for that type of camera. My job relies on it. Film shooters can take it or leave it. It's a buyers market for the most part.

 

[Michael Mutmansky]

Michael - why would I regret having a good stash of sheet film in my freezer which I bought at the third or fourth of the going rate now? It will probably keep me going into my 80's and still be perfectly usable.

And as far as Michael Smith goes, what ULF shooter wouldn't love to have Super-XX available again if that were possible?

There are some serious printmakers hanging around this forum. Not everything is about owning the latest rinky-dink rubber bathtub duck equipped with a miniature digital camera behind one of its plastic eyeballs.

There was nothing magical about XX. What MS ended up with was a freezer full of fogged film that he worked hard to overcome. He may have believed that XX was a special film, but it truth, it was not, as it had nearly identical characteristic curves to most other B&W films available and its' sensitivity was not distinctly different as well.

I have stocked up in the past when I was shooting ULF cameras, especially before Photo Warehouse stopped selling the cut to order FP4 because I had a size that was mostly impossible to get from Kodak or Ilford at the time, 10x12, along with a 7x17.

However, film is pershible and unless forced to, there's no way I'd be buying film to shoot for the next 20 years or so. Life is too short to be fighing with film as it goes off.

 

[Don_ih]

The Retail Outlet of Samuel Ashkynase is not selling the Terrible Simian fuzzulator box for three grand. They'll have it in stock for $59.99.

To be realistic, the vast majority of photographers do not NEED a specific kind of film camera. For paid work I NEED a specific line of digital camera. If the price gets jacked up either I find a deal or I'll have to shell out and pay for that type of camera. My job relies on it. Film shooters can take it or leave it. It's a buyers market for the most part.

You described a situation where something still being sold at retail is being overhyped and essentially "scalped" on ebay. In a lot of instances, although the retail store has a price tag saying "$60", you'll find no stock left on the shelves as people have bought all of them to cash in on a trend. When the Nintendo Switch came out, you could not find it at any store (~$350) but you could buy one on ebay (~$1200). And that was definitely something you can "take or leave" - but that was the going price, regardless of your individual attitude. As in, sure -- you can take or leave it. But if you decide to take it, you're going to be paying the asking price or you won't be getting it.

 

[benjiboy]

It's only a "disorder" if it interferes with your life or is something you want to change but can't.

I sometimes say, "I'm oh-see-not-dee because it's not a disorder if I LIKE being this way." And I kind of mean that.

Obsessive compulsive disorder is a recognised mental illness.

 

[Cholentpot]

You described a situation where something still being sold at retail is being overhyped and essentially "scalped" on ebay. In a lot of instances, although the retail store has a price tag saying "$60", you'll find no stock left on the shelves as people have bought all of them to cash in on a trend. When the Nintendo Switch came out, you could not find it at any store (~$350) but you could buy one on ebay (~$1200). And that was definitely something you can "take or leave" - but that was the going price, regardless of your individual attitude. As in, sure -- you can take or leave it. But if you decide to take it, you're going to be paying the asking price or you won't be getting it.

Right.

But as with the Bad Monkey effects box, it's a very tiny niche community that is jacking up prices and scalping them on Ebay. I'd wager most Guitar Center or Sam Ash stores aren't even aware that there's a price war going on with these things. It was like this with film cameras for the longest time. Online prices were nuts, out in the world prices were thrift store.

Currently, either a nice old lady is giving me a free camera that her husband bought at a PX in 1963 or I'm scouring online for cameras that are still under the radar. Anything that got popular I steer clear from as the prices have gone bonkers online.

 

[VinceInMT]

Looking for a rational explanation for the price of anything is a fool’s errand. Varying supply and demand issues wrapped up with emotions and then what the market will bear just confounds understanding or predictability. Outside the items in niche markets, we see it played out in real estate. Why is a house in Bozeman, Montana that sold for $150,000 just 15 years ago, going for $900,00 today? It’s the same house in the same place.

 

[Huss]

Ebay is where the PT Barnum customers hang out.

Hey my sweet n80 for $20 shipped says otherwise!
As does my $1500 M7 serial# 3xxxx
etc

Of course there are lots of sellers looking for suckers. Right now some Japanese sellers are asking $2500+ for a Rollei qz35. Actual sold prices are in the $500-$700 range.

 

[Huss]

..

The Olympus Trip is her favourite, but it broke, so she asked me to look at it, last Thursday evening It's toast, the take-up spool gear has failed. A friend asked what's that camera, so I explained, he said I have one almost unused in its box, she can have it. She was concerned that they sell for a lot of money.

However, a quick check on eBay's sold prices show that's not the case, if lucky £16 but average £30-£40, yes a few black versions sell for much more, but they are rarer. But what surprised me was how many were selling.

..

Ian

I recently bought an Olympus Trip because I wanted to check off that box after all these years hearing about it.

The seller bought it from this place:

Trip Man - Olympus Trip 35 Specialist

Refurbished classic Olympus Trip 35 cameras, leather grips, fully serviced with a 12-month warranty, a full range of Olympus Trip 35 accessories, 35mm film, Gordy's leather camera straps. Servicing of Trip 35 cameras.

www.tripman.co.uk

So basically he passed it on to me at a discount. Beautiful looking camera - silver w green leather. Really liked the size - not too big, not too small - great size for a useable camera. Very nice VF. Problem was after two rolls of film I noticed the film spacing had suddenly become erratic and so I was not going to wait for that eventual failure and sold it on (disclosing everything etc).
Old cameras with plastic pieces? Not really built to last, no matter how pretty they may be..

 

[Huss]

..If current film users were actual pro photographers, not photography enthusiasts, there would be a great demand for cameras like the F6 and F5 that had modern features, not the M6, which was out of date when it came out in 1984.... Of course I bought my first two in 1985 when I worked at the newspaper but they were always a labour of love.

I wouldn't even say an F6 or F5. I have an F6, recently 'discovered' the N80/F80 and it does everything that could be needed. I haven't touched my F6 since. The N80s now can be had for $20-$30, the F6 about $1000.