Is some gear too cheap?

[AnselMortensen]

How could an instructor (or anyone) tell between using an automatic mode and being good at measuring and judging exposure?

That's where the 'astute' part comes in.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

How could an instructor (or anyone) tell between using an automatic mode and being good at measuring and judging exposure?

The teacher gives an exercise like shooting two portrait shots with a narrow and deep DOF could be a way of checking. Also, I assume there's classroom shoots where the instructor is working with the kids individually to see what they're learning and doing. If they're using a digital camera the EXIF data will show all settings including manual and auto as well as aperture and shutter and ISO.

 

[MattKing]

Well, what do you suggest?

In most cases, the students have to choose to enroll in an elective ahead of time - sometimes the semester before. They also have access to "required supply" lists for courses. Include in those lists a selection of appropriate cameras, plus a list of ones not appropriate. The choices for that list can be adapted to match the instructor's knowledge and experience. If an instructor doesn't want to deal with a camera like the Canon AE-1 that turns the meter off when switching to manual mode, put that on the "not appropriate" list.
If the resources exist, you might be able to have a "pre-approval" system, where students can ask ahead of time, but the realities of school budgets and scheduling mean that won't always be practical.

 

[MattKing]

But that's how supply and demand works. As long as there's sufficient supply, those things you mention will continue. Once the supply shrinks, which it will at some point, then the market will get the signal:- repairman will start offering their services at competitive prices, and manufacturers will start making new cameras at costs that can compete with higher prices on old cameras.

An "eat what you kill" market solution for problems like this means that a whole bunch of perfectly usable cameras will become impractical before they need to be and a whole bunch of experience based resources like repair people will die off, because all that approach supports is a result that ensures quick profits - usually accompanied by long term, unrepairable harm.
A better approach would be to improve the efficiency and efficacy of the market, by taking steps to increase knowledge about and usability of the cameras that are priced too cheap. Help make them more desirable, and encourage their pricing to come to a more reasonable level. That make take some interesting efforts, like improving access to instruction manuals, compatible accessories and appropriate batteries, and repair availability. All of those things are unlikely in a market based economy which rarely looks past the next fiscal quarter.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

An "eat what you kill" market solution for problems like this means that a whole bunch of perfectly usable cameras will become impractical before they need to be and a whole bunch of experience based resources like repair people will die off, because all that approach supports is a result that ensures quick profits - usually accompanied by long term, unrepairable harm.
A better approach would be to improve the efficiency and efficacy of the market, by taking steps to increase knowledge about and usability of the cameras that are priced too cheap. Help make them more desirable, and encourage their pricing to come to a more reasonable level. That make take some interesting efforts, like improving access to instruction manuals, compatible accessories and appropriate batteries, and repair availability. All of those things are unlikely in a market based economy which rarely looks past the next fiscal quarter.

So rather than market-based supply and demand, you want the taxpayers who own digital cameras to subsidize film shooters so they have access to old cameras, repairmen, and manuals at lower prices. I don't think that's something you'd want to run on. "Tax rebates on film cameras."

 

[Sirius Glass]

How could an instructor (or anyone) tell between using an automatic mode and being good at measuring and judging exposure?

Then the student only cheats himself or herself.

 

[MattKing]

So rather than market-based supply and demand, you want the taxpayers who own digital cameras to subsidize film shooters so they have access to old cameras, repairmen, and manuals at lower prices. I don't think that's something you'd want to run on. "Tax rebates on film cameras."

Who said anything about the government?
You need people like dedicated users interested in more things than just a quick buck. Plus educators, long term investors, motivated industry participants - like film manufacturers - and maybe a little bit of government support, for things like training programs for repairers.
Photographic websites are useful participants.
Supply and demand has already nearly destroyed film and film cameras. If you rely on it alone, it will complete the job.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Who said anything about the government?
You need people like dedicated users interested in more things than just a quick buck. Plus educators, long term investors, motivated industry participants - like film manufacturers - and maybe a little bit of government support, for things like training programs for repairers.
Photographic websites are useful participants.
Supply and demand has already nearly destroyed film and film cameras. If you rely on it alone, it will complete the job.

How is it destroying film? Kodak is hiring 300 people. Look at all the emulsions available. Look at all the apps dedicated to film. Profits are what drive people to open businesses and be creative. Look at all the millions spent every year on parts for antique cars fans nurture. The same will develop for film cameras. It's just that there is still a huge inventory of existing and workable cameras to buy which makes it uneconomical in most cases to build new. What about Lomography and Leica? You have to have some faith in markets.

 

[Pieter12]

I think the biggest problem is the dearth of qualified technicians (and available parts) and there doesn't seem to be a lot of people being trained to replace them. So these cheap cameras may be on the verge of breaking down and become disposable--as is most of what is made today. Have you ever tried getting an inkjet printer repaired?

 

[MattKing]

You have to have some faith in markets.

You have to view markets with a great deal of skepticism!
And that will be the end of this political discussion

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I think the biggest problem is the dearth of qualified technicians (and available parts) and there doesn't seem to be a lot of people being trained to replace them. So these cheap cameras may be on the verge of breaking down and become disposable--as is most of what is made today. Have you ever tried getting an inkjet

Which reminds me. When was the last time someone repaired a toaster?

 

[nosmok]

Which reminds me. When was the last time someone repaired a toaster?

Tim's Toasters LLC – Toast the way it was meant to be

www.timstoasters.com

Like cameras, it all depends on the toaster.

 

[Pieter12]

Which reminds me. When was the last time someone repaired a toaster?

I try to buy well-made products that are built to last rather than cheap, disposable ones. And I go the repair rather than replace route whenever possible.

The problem is it would cost more to repair an inexpensive toaster (because the work is done at domestic labor rates and probable lack of parts from the manufacturer or other source) than to buy a new one at a discount store, where it was made overseas in quantity and for very little cost). Higher-end gear such as wide-carriage inkjet printers should be repairable, but there are very few places that do such work.

 

[MattKing]

Which reminds me. When was the last time someone repaired a toaster?

Yesterday, I put back in place the bread lowering lever on our toaster. It had popped off, but it snapped right back on. Does that count?

 

[4season]

Which reminds me. When was the last time someone repaired a toaster?

I took mine apart for a good "CLA" the other year, and why not? A new Dualit 2-slot toaster sells for about $300, yet toaster technology hasn't really changed much.

 

[guangong]

Cheap is a relative term. I still think film camera prices are relatively cheap, even with the additional interest and rising prices.

(old man ramble)

As a young man, I worked the entire Summer of 1976 pouring concrete to purchase my dead-basic Minolta SRT-MC II setup. That $400 purchase comes out to roughly $2,088 USD in today's currency.

Had an amusing conversation with another photographer I ran into a few weeks ago. He was sporting a Fuji GFX 100S medium format digital camera and I had an old Nikon F2 hanging around my neck. He expressed interest in shooting film but thought it too expensive, although that camera body hanging around his neck cost about $5K USD at the moment.

I could buy several cameras and almost a lifetime supply of film for the cost of that body alone.

Oh well. To each their own...

A lifetime supply of film plus processing. The best part is they spend that kind of money every few years on the latest digital upgrade, so after a while it’s many times 5k.
You $400 Minolta outfit in 1976. A few years earlier I was able to buy a brand new Leica M4 with Summicron lens for $440 from Willoughbys. During Carter years Leitz USA did not include prices in their printed catalogs.

 

[Pieter12]

As a young man, I worked the entire Summer of 1976 pouring concrete to purchase my dead-basic Minolta SRT-MC II setup.

Same here. I worked all summer in 1967 to purchase a Nikon F with a 50mm f2 lens. Around $250 back then, if I remember correctly--a substantial amount for me at the time.

 

[ic-racer]

I got my Dualit in the early 1990s and am still using it all the time.

 

[reddesert]

Not a toaster, I repaired a drip coffee maker a few days ago. It stopped working because the thermal fuses blew (Thermal fuses are essentially a piece of solder-like alloy that melts if it overheats, for fire protection). I could buy another electric coffee maker for less than the nominal cost of my time, but: I like keeping stuff out of the garbage, this one made good coffee, and if I get a new one it will likely have programmable features that I don't really need but make it un-repairable if the mainboard fails.

Anyway, there are few going businesses that repair small appliances, but perhaps more DIYers than one might expect.

I think the decay of knowledge in terms of repair techs, plus the potential lack of specialized tools, supply of weak-link parts, or service manuals, is a bigger issue than the oversupply of film cameras. An oversupply means that there are plenty of donors to use for parts, unless a specialized part is the one that always breaks. But if there is no one with the expertise to do repairs then it's a problem. In the past, I think many repair techs got training either through apprenticeship or the military. I think that anyone who can repair digital cameras or movie cameras could also learn to repair older film cameras, but the question is, in a society where new manufactured stuff is cheap and old stuff is seen as outmoded, how many things (including digital cameras) are people going to continue repairing at all?

 

[Huss]

As far as teaching, there are no cameras that can be bought new so every kid has the same camera. So the instructor has to put up with everyone having a different camera. Just tell the students to switch to Manual mode.

Leica M-A, MP and M6 all can be bought new - every rich kid can have the same camera. If the school bought 20 of them that the students could sign out, that would 'only' be about $110,000.
Seeing that many schools pay their American Handball coaches $4 million +, they obviously could afford that.

 

[Huss]

Not a toaster, I repaired a drip coffee maker a few days ago. It stopped working because the thermal fuses blew (Thermal fuses are essentially a piece of solder-like alloy that melts if it overheats, for fire protection). I could buy another electric coffee maker for less than the nominal cost of my time, but: I like keeping stuff out of the garbage, this one made good coffee, and if I get a new one it will likely have programmable features that I don't really need but make it un-repairable if the mainboard fails.

Anyway, there are few going businesses that repair small appliances, but perhaps more DIYers than one might expect.

I think the decay of knowledge in terms of repair techs, plus the potential lack of specialized tools, supply of weak-link parts, or service manuals, is a bigger issue than the oversupply of film cameras. An oversupply means that there are plenty of donors to use for parts, unless a specialized part is the one that always breaks. But if there is no one with the expertise to do repairs then it's a problem. In the past, I think many repair techs got training either through apprenticeship or the military. I think that anyone who can repair digital cameras or movie cameras could also learn to repair older film cameras, but the question is, in a society where new manufactured stuff is cheap and old stuff is seen as outmoded, how many things (including digital cameras) are people going to continue repairing at all?

Did you just replace the fuse, or also fix the issue that caused the fuse to blow?

 

[reddesert]

Did you just replace the fuse, or also fix the issue that caused the fuse to blow?

Good question. With electrical fuses, you'll often blow it again. These are thermal "fuses" that melt at some temp (rated 216 C). Possibly I left the machine on with no pot on the hot plate (less likely, both fuses weakened over time, but they both failed at the same time so that seems unlikely). The machine is very simple, just some switches and wires and a themostatic switch. So I don't think it has an electrical fault; probably operator error.

If you google around for why a coffee maker is inoperative, you can find a bunch of people complaining that manufacturers put these thermal fuses in that fail and kill the machine, and a smaller number of people pointing out that coffee makers are responsible for some fraction of small-appliance kitchen fires.

I also fixed, then broke again, then fixed a jammed Vivitar 220/SL SLR yesterday. It was not that difficult, I am not a repair wizard, but it really helped to have a working one to look at. Repairing things isn't impossible. It helps if you gain experience by working on things that will not be a tragic loss if you fail (I would attempt to fix my own Vivitar, but not my friend's Hasselblad).

 

[henryvk]

Which reminds me. When was the last time someone repaired a toaster?

Good question!

OT: For me it was a retired electrician from my old neighbourhood, five or six years ago. I have this old Siemens toaster and the filament had (spectacularly so!) become unstuck from where it's supposed to connect to the power supply. It was a simply matter of clamping it back in place with a small bolt, washer and nut.

Siemens BRN 1 - Deutsche Digitale Bibliothek

www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de

I love this toaster btw because it's the one my family had growing up in the 80s and 90s. It's still around, though, I gave it to my mom when I found the same model with the chrome in better shape at a flea market and I've been using that one since. It's a very good toaster imo because, while there are no convenience features, there is virtually nothing in that could "break" other than the filament itself.

Also, while the model designation "BRN 1" probably stands for "Brotröster Nummer 1" or something like that, it's also the disemvoweled word "burn".