Is some gear too cheap?

[pentaxuser]

It perplexes me that what seems to be mostly young folks are not concerned with the film they use, the quality of the gear (especially lenses) or much else, as long as it is film. Unless it is about randomness and experimentation--valid art techniques--it reeks of "shooting film" being a fad.

I still find that to be the worrying aspect of film's revival. Fads tend not to last.

pentaxuser

 

[Huss]

I still find that to be the worrying aspect of film's revival. Fads tend not to last.

pentaxuser

Good thing this isn't a fad.

This film revival basically started in 1992 when Lomography kicked it off. Lomography IS the key driving force to the film industry's resurrection.

So, that was 30 years ago. What's the timeline for a fad?

 

[Pieter12]

I don't know if anyone has tracked film use over time by those who picked it up with lomography or other trends, in school, etc. There is probably a new group taking up film regularly, but there is probably a similar number who are dropping film after the novelty wears off. The local community college has a great photo department that concentrates on commercial aspects of photography rather than art--as a CC should, it serves more as a trade school. There are a couple of darkroom classes and occasionally a class that requires film use, but most are digital-oriented. It is easier to teach such things as lighting when the student and the instructor can see the results immediately and progress from there. Meeting some of the assignment deadlines can be difficult and time-consuming if a student chooses to use film. So not many of the film users stick with film for any length of time, many just while taking the required darkroom class.

 

[Autonerd]

When she told me it was for a film course I was a little surprised as so many people had said that film course instructors require manual only cameras. She said, nope, all that matters is if it can be controlled manually.
I like that - common sense instead of following a fad.

I always assumed we had manual cameras mandated because they didn't trust us. And rightfully so.

Aaron

 

[Helge]

It all comes down to supply and demand. Psychological tension and monetary homeopathic nothing both have nothing to do with it. A 60-year-old Bentley could cost more than what it cost when new. It's rare and still desired. How does the cost of materials affect the cost of the Mona Lisa? Why do old Leicas still cost so much? The labor and material costs have long be "used up". Yet a value for the product remains if there's a willing buyer who wants it. More buyers, and less sellers, means more value.

It’s possible to whip up a demand.
Mju IIs were givin away five or six years ago now they go for up to half a grand. They aren’t particularly rare either.

 

[Autonerd]

This film revival basically started in 1992 when Lomography kicked it off. Lomography IS the key driving force to the film industry's resurrection.

Wait, what? Um, back in '92 (which is right around the time I got started), film was all we had. Granted, I think that was the beginning of the Lomography era, although I don't remember calling it that; I do remember that a local photo store got in some plastic cameras (Holgas, I think) and they were all the rage with the grad students at Visual Studies Workshop in Rochester (one of whom was my Photo 102 prof). But back then, if you wanted to do serious photography, film is all there was.

I always considered the film revival more like early 2010s, last time all cameras were dirt cheap.

Me, I got back into it in 2019 because I wanted that back-to-basics experience. Didn't realize what A Thing film had become until shortly thereafter.

Aaron

 

[VinceInMT]

I long ago gave up trying to figure out how/why people assign value to something they purchase as it all seems so highly individual. For example, I guess “convenience” is a biggie and explains why people are willing to pay $3-5 for a cup of coffee they could make at home for 25 cents.

 

[Craig]

I long ago gave up trying to figure out how/why people assign value to something they purchase as it all seems so highly individual.

Or why bottled water is more expensive than gasoline.

 

[Pieter12]

I long ago gave up trying to figure out how/why people assign value to something they purchase as it all seems so highly individual. For example, I guess “convenience” is a biggie and explains why people are willing to pay $3-5 for a cup of coffee they could make at home for 25 cents.

Sometimes you want coffee and you're not at home? You don't have or can afford or know how to make a decent cup of coffee or espresso?

 

[MattKing]

It all comes down to supply and demand.

Only true for a "perfect" market - one where everyone has similar access to products and everyone has been fully informed. Otherwise, the majority of buying/paying decisions are skewed by all sorts of other factors.
The used camera market is almost entirely about wants, not needs - so the prices are not logical, so are they much affected by standard supply and demand factors. Or to say it differently, all the supply and all the demand is localized to the particular buyer.
I take at least part of the question raised by the OP "Is some gear so cheap that it is causing harm?"
And I'm not sure that I know the answer, although certainly some very good camera gear is ending up in recycling bins, rather than being put to use.
And as for the need for purely mechanical cameras for students, the reason isn't so much about the cameras themselves, but because of the realities of classroom/group teaching.
Just think how difficult it would be to put together teaching materials about exposure if your students all had different cameras, with different implementation of exposure control, viewing and focusing system. As an example, how would you design a lesson about metering and setting exposure manually to take into account the fact that a student had a Canon A-1, where the meter turns off when you switch the camera to manual.
If every student has a Pentax K1000, or Minolta SRT-101 or Olympus OM-1 or Canon Ftb or (pick a manual metering camera) then with very little difficulty a teacher can teach a lesson and everyone can apply it.

 

[ic-racer]

Any 'revival' of interest in cameras or film would be after say, 2011 or so.

 

[ic-racer]

Somewhere around 2013 or so there was an increased number of Google queries for film camera. These graphs show normalized trends, so even at 2018, the absolute number of Google queries for digital camera was still more than film camera....however see below...

 

[ic-racer]

Sometime after 2020 Google queries for film camera exceeded those for digital camera.

Actually digital camera queries are slightly upward too, perhaps due to people tired of iPhone and interested in used high-end digital SLR or mirrorless.

 

[Pieter12]

Only true for a "perfect" market - one where everyone has similar access to products and everyone has been fully informed. Otherwise, the majority of buying/paying decisions are skewed by all sorts of other factors.
The used camera market is almost entirely about wants, not needs - so the prices are not logical, so are they much affected by standard supply and demand factors. Or to say it differently, all the supply and all the demand is localized to the particular buyer.
I take at least part of the question raised by the OP "Is some gear so cheap that it is causing harm?"
And I'm not sure that I know the answer, although certainly some very good camera gear is ending up in recycling bins, rather than being put to use.
And as for the need for purely mechanical cameras for students, the reason isn't so much about the cameras themselves, but because of the realities of classroom/group teaching.
Just think how difficult it would be to put together teaching materials about exposure if your students all had different cameras, with different implementation of exposure control, viewing and focusing system. As an example, how would you design a lesson about metering and setting exposure manually to take into account the fact that a student had a Canon A-1, where the meter turns off when you switch the camera to manual.
If every student has a Pentax K1000, or Minolta SRT-101 or Olympus OM-1 or Canon Ftb or (pick a manual metering camera) then with very little difficulty a teacher can teach a lesson and everyone can apply it.

If every student had a hand-held meter and they were asked (made) to run their cameras in manual mode only, you could teach them all the same. The issue might be more about the school being able to maintain a variety of cameras (if they supply them) or making sure the students' cameras were all working properly.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Only true for a "perfect" market - one where everyone has similar access to products and everyone has been fully informed. Otherwise, the majority of buying/paying decisions are skewed by all sorts of other factors.
The used camera market is almost entirely about wants, not needs - so the prices are not logical, so are they much affected by standard supply and demand factors. Or to say it differently, all the supply and all the demand is localized to the particular buyer.
I take at least part of the question raised by the OP "Is some gear so cheap that it is causing harm?"
And I'm not sure that I know the answer, although certainly some very good camera gear is ending up in recycling bins, rather than being put to use.
And as for the need for purely mechanical cameras for students, the reason isn't so much about the cameras themselves, but because of the realities of classroom/group teaching.
Just think how difficult it would be to put together teaching materials about exposure if your students all had different cameras, with different implementation of exposure control, viewing and focusing system. As an example, how would you design a lesson about metering and setting exposure manually to take into account the fact that a student had a Canon A-1, where the meter turns off when you switch the camera to manual.
If every student has a Pentax K1000, or Minolta SRT-101 or Olympus OM-1 or Canon Ftb or (pick a manual metering camera) then with very little difficulty a teacher can teach a lesson and everyone can apply it.

Sure, there are many factors for "small" differences in pricing. Country where bought, exchange rates, shipping charges, VAT and other taxes, etc. But the main factor for higher prices is that demand for old cameras has gone up. Supply and demand. The fact Kodak is hiring 300 people to make more film confirms the increasing demand.

What do you mean that "some gear is so cheap it's causing harm"?

As far as teaching, there are no cameras that can be bought new so every kid has the same camera. So the instructor has to put up with everyone having a different camera. Just tell the students to switch to Manual mode.

 

[Huss]

As far as teaching, there are no cameras that can be bought new so every kid has the same camera. So the instructor has to put up with everyone having a different camera. Just tell the students to switch to Manual mode.

Of course there are. They are just really expensive.

 

[AnselMortensen]

An astute instructor could probably tell by looking a a proof sheet whether or not Manual mode was used....

 

[Thesecondone]

I found my last F2 at a camera shop for 65 bucks , i dont mind cheap at all

 

[MattKing]

What do you mean that "some gear is so cheap it's causing harm"?

The price is disrupting the formation or maintenance of a healthy market.
It is distorting people's appreciation of value.
It is skewing availability of product, because it depresses the viability and availability of things like new replacements and a healthy repair industry.
We regularly see the recommendation for discarding a camera because it is cheaper to replace it with another example of the same then it is to have it repaired or to buy a new replacement. This isn't healthy, in the long run.
All of which is similar to the effect of things like dumping merchandise into a market at a price lower than the cost to make/acquire it and market it.

 

[MattKing]

As far as teaching, there are no cameras that can be bought new so every kid has the same camera. So the instructor has to put up with everyone having a different camera. Just tell the students to switch to Manual mode.

How would you write up the instructional materials to do this?
How would you instruct students how to identify and deal with cameras that turn off metering when switched to manual mode? Remember that you may have three or four blocks of students, with 25 - 35 students in each.
You may not have the resources to give everyone individual instruction on the particulars of their camera model - you may not know them yourself.

 

[Pieter12]

An astute instructor could probably tell by looking a a proof sheet whether or not Manual mode was used....

How could an instructor (or anyone) tell between using an automatic mode and being good at measuring and judging exposure?

 

[Cholentpot]

An astute instructor could probably tell by looking a a proof sheet whether or not Manual mode was used....

People that earn money off of photography more often than not will use some form of auto mode. When push comes to shove you need the shot. Automation is wonderful provided you know the basics.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

The price is disrupting the formation or maintenance of a healthy market.
It is distorting people's appreciation of value.
It is skewing availability of product, because it depresses the viability and availability of things like new replacements and a healthy repair industry.
We regularly see the recommendation for discarding a camera because it is cheaper to replace it with another example of the same then it is to have it repaired or to buy a new replacement. This isn't healthy, in the long run.
All of which is similar to the effect of things like dumping merchandise into a market at a price lower than the cost to make/acquire it and market it.

But that's how supply and demand works. As long as there's sufficient supply, those things you mention will continue. Once the supply shrinks, which it will at some point, then the market will get the signal:- repairman will start offering their services at competitive prices, and manufacturers will start making new cameras at costs that can compete with higher prices on old cameras.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

How would you write up the instructional materials to do this?
How would you instruct students how to identify and deal with cameras that turn off metering when switched to manual mode? Remember that you may have three or four blocks of students, with 25 - 35 students in each.
You may not have the resources to give everyone individual instruction on the particulars of their camera model - you may not know them yourself.

Well, what do you suggest? Maybe the courses are taught with cameras in manual mode but with a separate handheld meter. Considering you would want to teach incident metering as well as reflective metering, this would be required anyway. I suppose a school could buy up eBay sold cameras and meters of different models and issue them to students. But then I could see them fighting over who gets the Nikon N90.

Maybe there's someone in the forum that teaches film photography in school or knows what they do with this issue?

 

[VinceInMT]

How would you write up the instructional materials to do this?
How would you instruct students how to identify and deal with cameras that turn off metering when switched to manual mode? Remember that you may have three or four blocks of students, with 25 - 35 students in each.
You may not have the resources to give everyone individual instruction on the particulars of their camera model - you may not know them yourself.

If I may, this is not a new type of challenge for teacher and certainly one I faced myself during my decades in the classroom. The solution is known, in edu-talk, as “cooperative learning.” Students are placed in groups and within those groups they problem solve (teach) each other with the teacher roaming from group to group offering guidance. In the camera situation, students could be grouped by camera type. Allowing them access to the internet for looking up instructions is a possibility although not a necessity. There tends to be at least a couple students who come in with some degree of prior- or related-knowledge who can become leaders within their groups. All this can take place after a generic lesson about exposure (film speed, time, aperture) so they know what to look for.

That said, the real value in this exercise is not that they will learn to use their cameras but that they will learn how to problem solve within a group.