Is San Francisco really that bad?

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wiltw

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Fifty percent is still a rather high divorce rate!

The stat that I mentioned
"But based on the 2021 data from the World Population Review, California now has one of the lowest divorce rates in the country at 9.30%. This figure refers to the percentage of the California population (estimated to be 39.9 million this 2021) that is divorced."​

3. California had the Highest Divorce Rate in the United States in 2012​

Although California is recognized today as one of the states with the lowest divorce rate, this was not always the case. In 2012, the State of California had the highest rate of divorce in the United States, at about 60%."​
Perhaps the fact that the entertainment industry is filled with people with multiple marriages has something to do with inflating CA statistics more than other states?!
 

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I remember when Monterey Cannery Row really was such, and had some very interesting things going on. Still some near things like the nearby famous Aquarium. My sister once lived just a short walk from the Aquarium. But I can do without all the later tourist trap retail development of ole Cannery Row itself. And there's nothing like watching East of Eden with James Dean for that Steinbeck perspective on it. SF's Fisherman's wharf also still has a few interesting things and so-so tempting restaurants (you pay for the view, not the food
necessarily), but has some of the most gawd-awful slippery "investment" galleries around, just like Ghiardelli Square. We almost never go there, but mainly when in SF head toward the Beach neighborhoods, or some Chinatown per se restaurant. Downtown has gotten too sterile for me; miss the tremendous bookstores and such. GG Park is still inviting, and the Presidio. But for every trip I make to SF, I make a fifty times more to the Marin side of the Golden Gate.
 

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I remember when Santa Clara valley was filled with orchards, and there were multiple canneries in the valley. Next door to my childhood home there was a strawberry patch owned by a Japanese couple who invited us to pick strawberries.
Del Monte cannery was in the valley and did not close until 1997!
 
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DREW WILEY

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Ha, Wilt! The divorce rate in CA is so low because the techies don't marry until they're 45; and by then, or a few years later, they've walked into a camera store and gotten shot before they can file for a divorce. It ain't like the Midwest, where High School sweethearts marry the day they get out of High School at 17, or in Louisiana when the elementary school finally kicks them out of 3rd grade at 24. Every Californian knows ya gotta earn two million dollars first, so you can afford to pay rent for the next two years, with perhaps a couple hundred bucks left over to spend at the camera store, to have something to do when the tech firms lay you off every six months. Or just move into the Iron Triangle or along International Blvd in Oakland or Hunter Point in SF, and you won't even need to worry about long-term life issues - there ain't gonna be no long-term.
 

Vaughn

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...
"But based on the 2021 data from the World Population Review, California now has one of the lowest divorce rates in the country at 9.30%. This figure refers to the percentage of the California population (estimated to be 39.9 million this 2021) that is divorced."​
...​

One way or the other, I am one of the millions. Easy to get that way in California. And fortunately not too bad in some respects if you can afford a lawyer.

 

wiltw

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Ha, Wilt! The divorce rate in CA is so low because the techies don't marry until they're 45; and by then, or a few years later, they've walked into a camera store and gotten shot before they can file for a divorce. It ain't like the Midwest, where High School sweethearts marry the day they get out of High School at 17, or in Louisiana when the elementary school finally kicks them out of 3rd grade at 24. Every Californian knows ya gotta earn two million dollars first, so you can afford to pay rent for the next two years, with perhaps a couple hundred bucks left over to spend at the camera store, to have something to do when the tech firms lay you off every six months. Or just move into the Iron Triangle or along International Blvd in Oakland or Hunter Point in SF, and you won't even need to worry about long-term life issues - there ain't gonna be no long-term.

Consider that a huge fraction of 'Californians' were not born here, but immigrated to CA in search of tech jobs, and now also jobs associated with medical products and biotech. In fact 27% are foreign born. Only about 64% of CA population was born in CA; CA natives are not even a 'majority' in CA!. It is what outsiders have made it into.
San Jose did not grow from 100K to 1 Million in my lifetime on endemic population growth. I bet that if you look at the metropolitan areas of SF Bay and Los Angeles, the 'outsiders' are an even larger segment of the population.

People who move to California have higher incomes than those who move away. California has been losing lower- and middle-income residents to other states for some time while continuing to gain higher-income adults. IOW, those coming in are responsible for the hikes in Real Estate prices paid, because they have the disposable income to bid up prices in competitive home buying of the past. Meanwhile, the low- and middle- income folks have to move away in order to be able to afford a home, or afford to retire (if they do not own their home). As a result, [real estate cost] rises faster than [personal income growth due to raises].​
 
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Sirius Glass

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I remember when Monterey Cannery Row really was such, and had some very interesting things going on. Still some near things like the nearby famous Aquarium. My sister once lived just a short walk from the Aquarium. But I can do without all the later tourist trap retail development of ole Cannery Row itself. And there's nothing like watching East of Eden with James Dean for that Steinbeck perspective on it. SF's Fisherman's wharf also still has a few interesting things and so-so tempting restaurants (you pay for the view, not the food
necessarily), but has some of the most gawd-awful slippery "investment" galleries around, just like Ghiardelli Square. We almost never go there, but mainly when in SF head toward the Beach neighborhoods, or some Chinatown per se restaurant. Downtown has gotten too sterile for me; miss the tremendous bookstores and such. GG Park is still inviting, and the Presidio. But for every trip I make to SF, I make a fifty times more to the Marin side of the Golden Gate.

Ghiardelli Square has a popup ice cream place and an abbreviated Ghiardelli ice cream place. The regular Ghiardelli ice cream place is under renovation. There is only a tea place and the multi-storied part is closed and devoid of boutiques.
 

VinceInMT

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….But I can do without all the later tourist trap retail development of ole Cannery Row itself. And there's nothing like watching East of Eden with James Dean for that Steinbeck perspective on it. …

I disagree. What you get with the film is Kazan’s “perspective on it.” If you want Steinbeck’s, read the book. It’s worth it.
 

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Consider that a huge fraction of 'Californians' were not born here...
This is an interesting time. What I did not read in the article (it was lightly mentioned) is the outflow of retired people to other states from California. Boomers who own a house in CA that has increased greatly in value, but their income upon retirement will not maintain the lifestyle they want. So they sell the house, buy a nicer place for a third of the price, and use the difference for investments, vacations, or whatever. I think northern Idaho is filled with CA retired police officers.

Sort of an interesting move for CA to tax pensions high enough to send retirees out-of-state (Florida. Nevada. South Dakota do not tax pensions, for example). Retirees run up the health care bills and take up space for new wage earners! 😎
 

wiltw

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This is an interesting time. What I did not read in the article (it was lightly mentioned) is the outflow of retired people to other states from California. Boomers who own a house in CA that has increased greatly in value, but their income upon retirement will not maintain the lifestyle they want. So they sell the house, buy a nicer place for a third of the price, and use the difference for investments, vacations, or whatever. I think northern Idaho is filled with CA retired police officers.

Sort of an interesting move for CA to tax pensions high enough to send retirees out-of-state (Florida. Nevada. South Dakota do not tax pensions, for example). Retirees run up the health care bills and take up space for new wage earners! 😎

Long time CA residents end up house rich, yet their retirement incomes do not stretch as far due to high gasoline prices (no one can explain why CA pays $1.20/gal more than the national average!), high electricity cost (CA used to have one of the cheapest electricity costs, and then deregulation made that go away...(I pay $0.55 for each addtional kilowatt/hour! used) so their property is their piggy bank and they move to make their major asset more liquid..
The marginal tax rate alone does not tell the whole story...while the highest rate belongs to CA, if you have a moderate income, it can be virtually the same as other states. Plus, California does not tax social security. If you make less than $100K a year, you could easily find yourself paying less in taxes if you stay in California than you would if you leave the state to retire. https://www.cunninghamlegal.com/california-retirement-taxes/
 
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Ha, Wilt! The divorce rate in CA is so low because the techies don't marry until they're 45; and by then, or a few years later, they've walked into a camera store and gotten shot before they can file for a divorce. It ain't like the Midwest, where High School sweethearts marry the day they get out of High School at 17, or in Louisiana when the elementary school finally kicks them out of 3rd grade at 24. Every Californian knows ya gotta earn two million dollars first, so you can afford to pay rent for the next two years, with perhaps a couple hundred bucks left over to spend at the camera store, to have something to do when the tech firms lay you off every six months. Or just move into the Iron Triangle or along International Blvd in Oakland or Hunter Point in SF, and you won't even need to worry about long-term life issues - there ain't gonna be no long-term.
The divorce rate is low because the higher earner (especially high tech worker) discovers that the judge interprets "no fault" divorces differently than you and I do. Especially when it comes to splitting equity and future income. If the lower earner is a substantially lower earner (as is the case when a software engineer at Google marries a public school teacher), at divorce the teacher get far more than half of the community property and at least half of the engineers income. The idea is that the judge intends the teacher's lifestyle to be no worse than the engineer's lifestyle after the divorce... and until they each die. Oh, and then there is the public discussion of the engineer's finances in court. Anyone who wanders in (and anyone can) get to hear lawyers and the judge argue over intimate details of the engineer's life. It is deliberately painful and designed to make the couple choose to stay together rather than face that. Oh wait, I didn't mention the predatory lawyers who will make big fees for doing absolutely incompetent work... such as forgetting the name of the person they represent while talking to the judge, making basic arithmetic errors in their court filings... and more. Yeah, divorce sucks.
 

VinceInMT

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….What I did not read in the article (it was lightly mentioned) is the outflow of retired people to other states from California. Boomers who own a house in CA that has increased greatly in value, but their income upon retirement will not maintain the lifestyle they want…..

And some, like myself, didn’t wait until retirement to “escape.” While I truly loved what was left of the ”California lifestyle,” I bailed in 1991 when I made a career change and moved to Billings. Yes, we sold the house we’d owned for 10-years and, yes, we were able to pay cash for 2 houses here. One we rented and still live in the other one.

There are many trade-offs in leaving California for other places. The downside is that we have no ocean here, there is a lack of ethnic diversity, there is very littler in the way of good ethnic food, the attitudes are quite provincial, and, of course, we do have winter. On the plus side, I went from 2-4 hour daily freeway commute to driving 8 minutes to where I worked. I had summers and holidays off with my kids so lots of travel. There is a sense of small community even though we are the largest city in the state. Homes are larger since they have basements (great for my darkroom). We have no sales tax but property taxes are high to make up for that.

Yes, some younger people are also bailing out of the west coast and moving here. Several of my former student to whom I taught computer programming, moved to San Francisco or Seattle, established themselves in that industry and have now moved back, working remote. I have an acquaintance who commutes weekly, working for a large search company.

The crime rate here is, statistically, higher that the Bay Area or Seattle but most of it is between people who know each other or directly drug related. Since I don’t hang out with druggies or people with violent tendencies, I feel quite safe in every part of our city.
 
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The stat that I mentioned
"But based on the 2021 data from the World Population Review, California now has one of the lowest divorce rates in the country at 9.30%. This figure refers to the percentage of the California population (estimated to be 39.9 million this 2021) that is divorced."

3. California had the Highest Divorce Rate in the United States in 2012

Although California is recognized today as one of the states with the lowest divorce rate, this was not always the case. In 2012, the State of California had the highest rate of divorce in the United States, at about 60%."
Perhaps the fact that the entertainment industry is filled with people with multiple marriages has something to do with inflating CA statistics more than other states?!

9.30% is not a divorce rate because it includes children and everyone else who have never been married or whose spouse has died. Divorce rates aren't based on the population but rather figured against the number of couples married who get divorced. Your 60% against 9.3% is comparing apples and oranges.
 
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The divorce rate is low because the higher earner (especially high tech worker) discovers that the judge interprets "no fault" divorces differently than you and I do. Especially when it comes to splitting equity and future income. If the lower earner is a substantially lower earner (as is the case when a software engineer at Google marries a public school teacher), at divorce the teacher get far more than half of the community property and at least half of the engineers income. The idea is that the judge intends the teacher's lifestyle to be no worse than the engineer's lifestyle after the divorce... and until they each die. Oh, and then there is the public discussion of the engineer's finances in court. Anyone who wanders in (and anyone can) get to hear lawyers and the judge argue over intimate details of the engineer's life. It is deliberately painful and designed to make the couple choose to stay together rather than face that. Oh wait, I didn't mention the predatory lawyers who will make big fees for doing absolutely incompetent work... such as forgetting the name of the person they represent while talking to the judge, making basic arithmetic errors in their court filings... and more. Yeah, divorce sucks.

Isn't it based on whether there are children involved? In other words, the richer spouse pays more for child support which ends when the children become adults.
 
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And some, like myself, didn’t wait until retirement to “escape.” While I truly loved what was left of the ”California lifestyle,” I bailed in 1991 when I made a career change and moved to Billings. Yes, we sold the house we’d owned for 10-years and, yes, we were able to pay cash for 2 houses here. One we rented and still live in the other one.

There are many trade-offs in leaving California for other places. The downside is that we have no ocean here, there is a lack of ethnic diversity, there is very littler in the way of good ethnic food, the attitudes are quite provincial, and, of course, we do have winter. On the plus side, I went from 2-4 hour daily freeway commute to driving 8 minutes to where I worked. I had summers and holidays off with my kids so lots of travel. There is a sense of small community even though we are the largest city in the state. Homes are larger since they have basements (great for my darkroom). We have no sales tax but property taxes are high to make up for that.

Yes, some younger people are also bailing out of the west coast and moving here. Several of my former student to whom I taught computer programming, moved to San Francisco or Seattle, established themselves in that industry and have now moved back, working remote. I have an acquaintance who commutes weekly, working for a large search company.

The crime rate here is, statistically, higher that the Bay Area or Seattle but most of it is between people who know each other or directly drug related. Since I don’t hang out with druggies or people with violent tendencies, I feel quite safe in every part of our city.

The problem is for many younger workers, the better jobs are often in the most expensive places to live. Salaries are usually higher there as well. Of course, a lot of people are drawn to less remote and more urban places like parts of Texas and Florida which have nice weather too and no state income taxes. More ethic diversity and better food. :wink:
 
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.....

The more I see of robberies of camera kit, the more I believe concealed carry permits are needed, with some good training, or in having several fit, photography club members meet up for a day of shooting; especially if you want to shoot in questionable areas with good kit.

Cheers,
Eli

Shooting a gun isn't too different from a camera. Nikon makes a good rifle scope. The general concept is the same, be super still and sturdy, press, dont jam the trigger, hold it.

New idea, camera gun! I'm sure someone has already done that, actually.
 

faberryman

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Ha, Wilt! The divorce rate in CA is so low because the techies don't marry until they're 45; and by then, or a few years later, they've walked into a camera store and gotten shot before they can file for a divorce. It ain't like the Midwest, where High School sweethearts marry the day they get out of High School at 17, or in Louisiana when the elementary school finally kicks them out of 3rd grade at 24. Every Californian knows ya gotta earn two million dollars first, so you can afford to pay rent for the next two years, with perhaps a couple hundred bucks left over to spend at the camera store, to have something to do when the tech firms lay you off every six months. Or just move into the Iron Triangle or along International Blvd in Oakland or Hunter Point in SF, and you won't even need to worry about long-term life issues - there ain't gonna be no long-term.

So many stereotypes, so little time.
 

Vaughn

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... Yeah, divorce sucks.
It does, but I found CA to be pretty good divorce-wise. My ex-spouse tried the to nullify my existance, but the court made her play fair...after I could borrow the money for the lawyer. I ended up with half the house, half her retirement savings, alimony (not called that anymore) and child-support, which did not please her. If we could have handled it in a friendly manner, she would have gotten off paying much less.

I have a lady friend (no benefits, just a good friend) who went thru the same thing -- she said the her partner broke his word and hired the meanest divorce lawyer in the county. By golly, ended up being the same lawyer my ex had hired.

But as faberryman said -- stereotypes. Every divorce is different.
 

VinceInMT

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The problem is for many younger workers, the better jobs are often in the most expensive places to live. Salaries are usually higher there as well. Of course, a lot of people are drawn to less remote and more urban places like parts of Texas and Florida which have nice weather too and no state income taxes. More ethic diversity and better food. :wink:

Yes, the cost of living in the Bay Area is high but so are some of the salaries. My oldest and his wife just bought a house in Mountain View. The prices was, well, shocking, but as a percentage of their income it’s no different from when I bought my first place in the early 1980s.

I hear lots of people are moving to Texas and Florida but when I hear “nice weather” as one of the reasons I don’t buy it, at least for me. I really dislike humidity and will take our cold and very low humidity over that. But, yes, I do envy the better food options. I never eat out here. Ever. But I love to cook and do a wide range of cuisines so I solved that problem but when I travel, that’s the first thing I look for: good ethnic options.

Speaking of food and San Francisco, when I get out there I like going to Oren’s Israeli restaurants either in The City (SoMa) or in Palo Alto. Wonderful stuff. There is nothing close to that In Montana, except at my house. ;-)
 

VinceInMT

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I read that divorce is good for the economy since someone has to go out and buy the stuff they just lost: pots, pans, plates, silverware, appliances, bedding, etc. It is also partially responsible for the boom in storage units since someone needs to find a place to stash the leftovers while they couch surf.
 

Sirius Glass

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This is an interesting time. What I did not read in the article (it was lightly mentioned) is the outflow of retired people to other states from California. Boomers who own a house in CA that has increased greatly in value, but their income upon retirement will not maintain the lifestyle they want. So they sell the house, buy a nicer place for a third of the price, and use the difference for investments, vacations, or whatever. I think northern Idaho is filled with CA retired police officers.

Sort of an interesting move for CA to tax pensions high enough to send retirees out-of-state (Florida. Nevada. South Dakota do not tax pensions, for example). Retirees run up the health care bills and take up space for new wage earners! 😎

My friend and I looked into that. Yes one can save on taxes, but those states then take all the equity when one dies so the family looses out. More importantly those states do not have Class 1 hospitals or doctors so your first heart attack or stroke will be your last.
 

Sirius Glass

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Long time CA residents end up house rich, yet their retirement incomes do not stretch as far due to high gasoline prices (no one can explain why CA pays $1.20/gal more than the national average!), high electricity cost (CA used to have one of the cheapest electricity costs, and then deregulation made that go away...(I pay $0.55 for each additional kilowatt/hour! used) so their property is their piggy bank and they move to make their major asset more liquid..
The marginal tax rate alone does not tell the whole story...while the highest rate belongs to CA, if you have a moderate income, it can be virtually the same as other states. Plus, California does not tax social security. If you make less than $100K a year, you could easily find yourself paying less in taxes if you stay in California than you would if you leave the state to retire. https://www.cunninghamlegal.com/california-retirement-taxes/

I am have only lived in Los Angeles since 21 June 1969. I went through a messy divorce because the ex wanted to fight over everything, lost on each and was penalized for each extra fight, but it still cost money*. We pay about 60 cents more a gallon of gas for the summer blend than the rest of the country for cleaner, but it is worth it. After the divorce I had to rebuild my retirement and buy a new place. I have now been retired since 2014 and been put in the position of buy more cameras and lenses used because they are no longer manufactured and consequently paying less for them then when they were new. I have first class doctors and live near two Class 1 hospitals: Cedars Sinai [Now #2 in the nation] and UCLA. I now go to other states to take photographs. Its a hard knock life, but someone has to live it. I am not moving.

* I served 24 years, we both earned good salaries, mine much higher, I got the two children, child support, and paid no alimony, and the ex got my dog [the dog was really pissed]. The woman judge did not like the ex fighting over everything when my attorney offer 60% not to fight. @MattKing, see there are good attorneys in the world :wink:.
 
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DREW WILEY

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Well, approaching retirement, I had to let go of two houses and some lovely mountain property I just couldn't realistically keep up with
getting older, near three National Parks, six official Wilderness areas, and with a hundred square miles of unihabited de facto wilderness right across the road. So it's certainly not necessary to move out of State to avoid oft-incorrect stereotypes of California. Fortunately, I bought my Bay Area house nearly fifty years ago, certainly not a middle class bargain back then, but manageable, for about 5% of what this house might sell for today, were I to sell it. My wife is a city gal, so wouldn't be happy permanently living in the mountains anyway,
with its weather extremes, and, originally being from Portland, likes living here on the coast.

But it's hard to give up this wonderful climate, and all our freely accessible nearby open land, despite earthquake risk. Clogged traffic is actually a bigger annoyance than fear of crime; but being retired, I don't have worry about driving during rush hour anymore. And most of my favorite hiking and photographic haunts are the opposite, easier direction from rush hour crunches.

Wilt - nearly all of SoCals power was once generated SoCal Edison dams and hydroelectric facilities right upriver, or even right down below, from where my place was. PG&E had just as many competing facilities, but serving central and costal Calif like here. Those began as the most massive engineering projects in human history up to that point (ca 1915), and just got more intense, including almost unbelievable giant deep inside mountains plants built up into the 1990's. Directly below my own place, about a 1500 ft below, the was a drilled (not blasted) tunnel 20 ft in diameter through diorite (far harder than granite), 7 miles long, at a cost of $23,000 every 3-feet for the diamond cutting heads alone. But the whole problem is that sufficient snowpack simply isn't available anymore in the average year due to climate change. So fossil fuels plants are required. And getting away from CA won't necessarily reduce your rates. Even Portland, on the damned giant Columbia River with Grand Coulee Dam right upstream, is having impose higher water rates and electrical bills. And places like Idaho or the Wasatch corridor of Utah - talk about some explosive LA-style development in certain area, with all that drain on resources!

And Sirius - yeah, I like going out of State too sometimes to photograph. But things are changing everywhere. Yet prior to the pandemic I took friends into portions of the Sierra where we saw nobody else for a week at a time, and one of these guys has the income to explore climb in anywhere in the world he wishes, yet remarked that those location on my own bucket list, right here in CA, are among the most memorable of anywhere he had ever been. It ain't talkin' 'bout stepping on each other's toes competing for the favorite camera position at the first tour bus turnout in Yosemite Valley. CA is a really big place, with a damn lot to see and photograph in comparative solitude, whether farmlands, or desert, or mountains, or coastal forests. I'm planning for a tiny slice of it today, just a short drive from here in the city. And there ain't nothin' worse than people who don't even leave in CA, but across the border in LA instead, making incorrect stereotypes about it.

Of course, it could be a lot worse, like living in Barstow or Bakersfield, the infamously dusty, smelly outpost colonies of Texas.
 
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Sirius Glass

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Because of Prop 13, the property tax is based on a fixed percentage of the purchase price and can only go up 2% a year maximum while in other states the value and tax rate goes up every time more money locally or statewide. Go California!
 
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