Is it a shame Fuji discontinued Superia200 ? What is the reason ?

[trendland]

By the time : Kodak seams to be on schedule, look at this :

And if Kodak's pricing is not higher in comparison to new Fuji E6 prices you can be sure I will spent no single buck to Fuji E6 in 2018 !

with regards

 

[David Luttmann]

Not entirely true. If they can raise prices enough that they turn a profit on each master roll even with reduced sales volume due to those increased prices, they could keep making the film, even if some of the master roll is wasted due to age.

But it's not just about getting into the black. Every corporation wants to maximise its profits. If the return on investment on product X is less than on product Y, it can make sense to move resources from X to Y even though both X and Y are profitable.

The yield curve does not work that way. Prices increases cut down sales volumes faster than profitability makes up the difference. This was explained to me by a friend at Ilford.

 

[GarageBoy]

I don't trust a thing fuji says regarding film, and I've accepted the fact that anything left in the line up can be gone tomorrow

 

[NJH]

Same here sadly, all it takes is for some other cost to impact their E6 such as something left field like having to train new staff, it could be as crazy as when the guys and gals currently running their film lines retire they kill it all off. Given that Fuji never tells us anything other than empty marketing platitudes such as "we are a film company", whilst quietly killing one product line after another its hard not to be cynical.

 

[trendland]

I don't trust a thing fuji says regarding film, and I've accepted the fact that anything left in the line up can be gone tomorrow

Yes GarageBoy - this is that type of oppinion some here on Apug/Photrio named it : "conspiracy theories" as I have learned - others may see this as smart (to ecpect a possible worst case)
My tendency is more straight in direction to the second.
I also will not wonder if we all see a sitiation in two years (may be in just one year) you can buy two kind of films from Fuji : E6/c41 ! A color film ISO 400, a color proffessional film ISO 400, a slide film ISO 100 (all films just in 135-36) until Fuji will discontinue the cheaper color film.......
That should be not the worst catastrophe
if Kodak and Ferrania would compensate this - but nobody can guarantee it.
And if they both probably bring out some
new films (with Ferrania I still have some doubts) nobody will be happy again if one have to pay $13,95 to a simple color film and $ 24,95 to 135-36 E6.
And in adition no one is helped if 120 films will be also avaible with costs of
$ 32,- a single roll.
Remember comparable situations with Super8 and APS in the past.
This scenario is indeed a bit horrible but it definitivly would reduce the remaining demand on film in direction on zero !
Fuji is on its way to this situation.

with regards

 

[trendland]

Same here sadly, all it takes is for some other cost to impact their E6 such as something left field like having to train new staff, it could be as crazy as when the guys and gals currently running their film lines retire they kill it all off. Given that Fuji never tells us anything other than empty marketing platitudes such as "we are a film company", whilst quietly killing one product line after another its hard not to be cynical.

I definitifly agree with you !
Just to explain : I can live with a situation prices to film will increase.
Because of the reasons we all know - this is a situation nobody can change - so we have to accept this.....
I also can accept several increases from pricing to films with less demand.
But I can't accept to pay more and more AND MORE (by the time this pricing reduces the remaining demand to film most) .....and at the end of a situation wich I have spend phantastic prices to my films meanwhile I get my reward to this steadfast behavior - my local Dealer will tell my : " Sorry Sir your favourite films are discontinued since 6 month - we are sold out in total."...
Sure you are forced to forage films.
AND sorry - sometimes I have this kind of feeling manufacturers does know this
exactly : "Film entusiasts are people who
need film to any pricing - let us increase it again because some of them are still beginning to hoard films"
This is a kind of incorrect business if you ask me - in this concern Fuji is the unbeaten champion of its class as we should apprehend from the past.

with regards

 

[trendland]

The yield curve does not work that way. Prices increases cut down sales volumes faster than profitability makes up the difference. This was explained to me by a friend at Ilford.

Yes David, your friend at Ilford is right.
Bw film is a total different business because manufacturing and research to reformulation of emulsions is not as complicate and expensive in comparision
to color film.
I would guess the machines to start smaler produktion runs are much cheaper.
Perhaps we can see this in context from an example today : Ferrania !
Or let us say : A new color emulsion need
machines wich run day and night with highest output (kilometers of film).
Any change in manufacturing (for example some different emulsions of the same film family but with different speed) need that kind of adjustments wich is most expansive to the whole production runs. In addition you may have permanent quality checks of different parametern.And in concert of this you have to waste produced film.
You can see this with bw film also from the example Ferrania.
(P30 with little quality problems but they have to sale this films nevertheless)
I am no expert of manufacturing but it seams to be a logic from known facts.
So bw film is much more easier to handle. What is the method of Ilford ?
To every time there have been possibilities to manufacturers to handle small demand to special emulsions.
They managed this not with smallest production runs (backing the emulsion)
to uneconomical costs - they did the opposite : Normal manufacturing due to highest volume to minimize costs.
And after this they sold these film with low demand to a period wich last sometimes more than a decade.
I just gues this is Ilfords way.
But therefore you have to trust (because you have to store masterols to some years and of cause you have to increase pricing from year to year due to storrage costs).
But in summary you should know if people will buy your films in some years
ago.
Ilford is obviously sure about this - no wonder about from me......!

with regards

 

[Lee Rust]

Film photography has become a tiny niche market. I live in Rochester NY and every journey past the empty expanses of the former Kodak Park is stark evidence of this current state of affairs. Any one of us who still uses color film should be thankful that Fuji successfully continued Kodak's instant photo technology under the name of Instax and that the movie industry continues to use a limited amount of Eastman color cinema film. B&W film manufacture is relatively simple and can be a money maker even if the volume is small, but the complicated and tricky color film manufacturing process can only be profitable when the demand is high. Kodak Park used to run several coating lines 24/7 and only shut them down for maintenance. Now I believe there is only one color line still in operation and it only runs a few times a week.

Instead of excoriating Fuji for dropping unprofitable film varieties we might instead be appreciative of how far past the point of diminishing returns they've kept them in production.

 

[trendland]

Thanks to this special info Lee Rust - thats in the direction I speculate a bit :
24/7 production run with color films !
So it is indeed the economic method without alternatives.
Kodak managers made obviously some bad mistakes.They know : Digital is comming - but they can't see that it was comming with this speed !
But to me Kodak was able to learn about.
Fuji is in a total different situation they have enough money to invest in new production lines.

I don't know from where Kodak create the profit to reinvest in E6 relaunch.
Obviously they make money with other
parts of their company.And sure the contracts to Motion Picture Film will help a bit.
Not to forget thousands of emploers wich
lost their jobs.
But I definitivly see a difference :
They are willing to change the situation.
Just look on this great marketing campaign to relauch Kodak Ektachrome Films.
And notice : Demand on products is not like a "one way street" it is nearly a paradox situation :"Consumers are wimpering to get the stuff they need with
higher and higher pricing"
To create the demand on products is todays business of giant industries.
Often people bought things nobody need before. Why is this - because of smart advertising.
AND the comunication Fuji give to people who are willing to buy their films is like
we have seen from eastern States during the cold war! Therefore my excoriation in regard of Fuji.
It is not our business to create more demand on Fuji products - it is their job
wich is done contraproductive by themselfes.
Sorry for this doing again but also caused from last mentioned issue :
SHAME ON FUJI

with regards

 

[Arctic amateur]

We are not even given the chance to pay a higher price for a film like Superia 200. It's just gone. Did the price rise up for the last few years, testing the market to see how high a price it would bare? No.

My impression was that Fujifilm regularly increases prices of their films. Seems to be around one announcement per year.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I can afford the increases and I am willing to pay the higher prices to be able to use film. I will support the film companies for as long as I can because I believe in film. Once a company stops making in film it will never come back.

 

[RattyMouse]

My impression was that Fujifilm regularly increases prices of their films. Seems to be around one announcement per year.

This is incorrect.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Fuji over-diversified and excessively regionalised their film range before pruning it in a less than sensible manner. If they made a couple of films off the same emulsion technology generation on all formats and marketed them globally, they could shrink their range, but offer a rational choice. Remember that not that long ago there was Superia 400 (120 only), Superia xtra 400 (135 only), and NPH (135 & 120) - a confusing mess to put it mildly! Personally I'd have preferred plain Superia to have been the one that remained - always seemed nicer colourwise (and a hair sharper) than NPH. NPH was probably seen as more 'marketable' as a 'professional' brand against Portra - and that's quite apart from Fuji deciding to surrender the sheet C41 and BW markets to Kodak and Ilford etc. Not that that's a massive surprise when both offer 400 speed stocks in sheets and Fuji didn't go above 160.

 

[Arctic amateur]

This is incorrect.

Well, I must disagree. I googled "201X Fujifilm price increase" changing X from 2 through 7, and only for 2014 did I not find a photography site discussing a new Fujifilim price increase announcement.

 

[RattyMouse]

Well, I must disagree. I googled "201X Fujifilm price increase" changing X from 2 through 7, and only for 2014 did I not find a photography site discussing a new Fujifilim price increase announcement.

Reala 100 coast $4/a roll when discontinued. Plenty of room for a price hike. Nope. Gone.
Superia 200 was just discontinued around the same price. Plenty of room to go higher. I would have paid it.
Same with Natura. An extremely important film and I have paid up to $15 a roll to third parties to get some from Japan. Fujifilm just offed it.

No only does Fujifilm refuse to raise prices in lieu of cancelling films, they wont even sell many films globally.

NPS is still available in Japan, but not elsewhere. Ridiculous. I would shoot a lot of that film, if I can get it into my camera.

 

[David Luttmann]

Reala 100 coast $4/a roll when discontinued. Plenty of room for a price hike. Nope. Gone.
Superia 200 was just discontinued around the same price. Plenty of room to go higher. I would have paid it.
Same with Natura. An extremely important film and I have paid up to $15 a roll to third parties to get some from Japan. Fujifilm just offed it.

No only does Fujifilm refuse to raise prices in lieu of cancelling films, they wont even sell many films globally.

NPS is still available in Japan, but not elsewhere. Ridiculous. I would shoot a lot of that film, if I can get it into my camera.

As I pointed out, raising prices does not save films. An analysis need be done to see if price impacts volumes sold prior to expiry of master roll. In most cases for Fuji, who were unable to change production capacity to lower yields, it does not. Increasing prices actually slows sales faster than impacting profitability.

The calls from some people for increasing prices to save their favorite films is misguided. In this model.

 

[trendland]

Fuji over-diversified and excessively regionalised their film range before pruning it in a less than sensible manner. If they made a couple of films off the same emulsion technology generation on all formats and marketed them globally, they could shrink their range, but offer a rational choice. Remember that not that long ago there was Superia 400 (120 only), Superia xtra 400 (135 only), and NPH (135 & 120) - a confusing mess to put it mildly! Personally I'd have preferred plain Superia to have been the one that remained - always seemed nicer colourwise (and a hair sharper) than NPH. NPH was probably seen as more 'marketable' as a 'professional' brand against Portra - and that's quite apart from Fuji deciding to surrender the sheet C41 and BW markets to Kodak and Ilford etc. Not that that's a massive surprise when both offer 400 speed stocks in sheets and Fuji didn't go above 160.

There is no logic plan behind Fuji discontinued films or let some emulsions remaining in sale.
From my point of view it is Fujis random
generator who decide wich film is next to discontinue.
And to some cases in the past films with high demand were discontinued first to this issue Fuji stated : "because of low demand."
Well I personaly don't speculate Fuji managers are real drunk - the possible reason could only be : They stopped film
production from coating lines somewere
between 2008 - 2010 in total.
With bigger amounds of masterrols from storage they delivered the less demand niche market to several years.
And if one emulsion is going short they decide against a new production run.
So they descontinued film to film - and it seams to be a random choice when you
look at what film is first.
That would also explain Fujis comunication. They can't say wich film is next. It is in regard of forage volume of masterrols produced years ago.
And the dramatic following consequence of this is quite clear :
Fuji will discontinue all of the remaining films.
Films with high demand ...AT..FIRST !

But with Fuji E6 it seams a little different.
They increased prices several times a year to get more money with the smal rest of remaining forage volume.
And this is also a corrective factor to demand.
This would imply Fuji produces lower demand to E6 by themselves ?
Sure - with higher pricing there forage volume will least a several periods more longer - till they are sold out.
The intern pricing (costs) are fixed (from production far behind) the costs of storage they can handle (freezing)....
Profit came from price increasemend every 5 month.
A strange theory of cause I know this.
But it would explain all interrelationships.

with regards

 

[trendland]

As I pointed out, raising prices does not save films. An analysis need be done to see if price impacts volumes sold prior to expiry of master roll. In most cases for Fuji, who were unable to change production capacity to lower yields, it does not. Increasing prices actually slows sales faster than impacting profitability.

The calls from some people for increasing prices to save their favorite films is misguided. In this model.

Quite right - David from exact same reason Kodak will deliver first New Ektachrome Films the next week.
They stated to "Test the films" !
Sure they made all tests Kodak internally before.
They will start a bigger marketing campaign again.(bigger as we remember from Jan.2017)
They obviously will deliver lots of Top - Photographer with the new film.
And they will test Ektachrome personaly?
No - with "test the film" Kodak stated - they test the marked - to find a price wich is best to the relations you exact stated.
Thanks to this explanation of pricing from you - I would 100% agree with.

with regards

 

[RattyMouse]

As I pointed out, raising prices does not save films. An analysis need be done to see if price impacts volumes sold prior to expiry of master roll. In most cases for Fuji, who were unable to change production capacity to lower yields, it does not. Increasing prices actually slows sales faster than impacting profitability.

The calls from some people for increasing prices to save their favorite films is misguided. In this model.

Historically speaking $4/roll of film in 2015 is very very cheap. Fujifilm could have easily have increased prices and hardly put a dent in film sales. Many films at that time sold for far more than $4/roll. I think back then (going from memory here) Provia was double that price. Provia is still going strong and I hardly think that sold more than the best C41 film we've ever had back then.

 

[Lachlan Young]

And to some cases in the past films with high demand were discontinued first to this issue Fuji stated : "because of low demand."
Well I personaly don't speculate Fuji managers are real drunk - the possible reason could only be : They stopped film
production from coating lines somewere
between 2008 - 2010 in total.
With bigger amounds of masterrols from storage they delivered the less demand niche market to several years.
And if one emulsion is going short they decide against a new production run.
So they descontinued film to film - and it seams to be a random choice when you
look at what film is first.
That would also explain Fujis comunication. They can't say wich film is next. It is in regard of forage volume of masterrols produced years ago.
And the dramatic following consequence of this is quite clear :
Fuji will discontinue all of the remaining films.
Films with high demand ...AT..FIRST !

This is almost certainly wrong. Probably a lot of this may have been down to projected production runs to fill anticipated demand becoming so spread out (likely 18-24 months at a minimum) that films would be fogging in storage before enough stock had sold to pay for making more. Remember that manufacturers generally have far higher standards for fog, colour etc than third party resellers of bulk rolls!
Anyway, all this has been gone into in some detail upthread. Pro160ns (for example) until recently presumably sold enough in 120/220 to make a batch at a specific interval, but not the 135 version (which is on a different base). It will have gone when a growth in that production interval combined with management's perception of the price point the market would accept. Kodak Alaris did some research a few years ago & found that their user base would rather accept some price increases in preference to product discontinuation. Their range was also much more aggressively rationalised and unified than Fuji's. If Fuji had chosen to make 2 C-41 films, 2-3 E-6 films and 1-2 BW films available globally & in all formats back about the late 2000s I suspect that they'd not find themselves dealing with the consequences now of making too many types of film in not enough formats for too many overly local markets.

 

[David Luttmann]

Historically speaking $4/roll of film in 2015 is very very cheap. Fujifilm could have easily have increased prices and hardly put a dent in film sales. Many films at that time sold for far more than $4/roll. I think back then (going from memory here) Provia was double that price. Provia is still going strong and I hardly think that sold more than the best C41 film we've ever had back then.

Which Reala are you referencing for $4 a roll? Fuji Reala 100 was discontinued a good 7 or more years ago...not 2015. Reala 100 and Superia Reala were different films.

One thing Fuji did make clear many years ago...if a film was not profitable, it would be cut. 100 speed film are far less popular than 200 and 400. That is why Reala was cut, along with Pro 160.

 

[RattyMouse]

Which Reala are you referencing for $4 a roll? Fuji Reala 100 was discontinued a good 7 or more years ago...not 2015. Reala 100 and Superia Reala were different films.

One thing Fuji did make clear many years ago...if a film was not profitable, it would be cut. 100 speed film are far less popular than 200 and 400. That is why Reala was cut, along with Pro 160.

Reala 100 in 120 size was the last version of Reala that I know to be discontinued. It was wildly available in China during the 6 years I lived there.

Pro 160 (NPS) is still available, but only in Japan.

 

[RattyMouse]

Which Reala are you referencing for $4 a roll? Fuji Reala 100 was discontinued a good 7 or more years ago...not 2015. Reala 100 and Superia Reala were different films.

One thing Fuji did make clear many years ago...if a film was not profitable, it would be cut. 100 speed film are far less popular than 200 and 400. That is why Reala was cut, along with Pro 160.

I got my dates wrong. It was in 2012. Hard to believe how time flies. I lived in China from 2009-2015 and thought my experience with Reala was near the end of my time there. Instead it was the middle.

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2012/10/23/fujifilm-reala-100-discontinued-in-120-format/

 

[RattyMouse]

If Fuji had chosen to make 2 C-41 films, 2-3 E-6 films and 1-2 BW films available globally & in all formats back about the late 2000s I suspect that they'd not find themselves dealing with the consequences now of making too many types of film in not enough formats for too many overly local markets.

Yes, Fuji has run their film product line in about as miserable a way as one can imagine. 6 films in all sizes, with maybe a super high speed C41 film 1600 thrown in would have been perfect, and shown a real commitment to film instead of their empty words.

 

[trendland]

This is almost certainly wrong. Probably a lot of this may have been down to projected production runs to fill anticipated demand becoming so spread out (likely 18-24 months at a minimum) that films would be fogging in storage before enough stock had sold to pay for making more. Remember that manufacturers generally have far higher standards for fog, colour etc than third party resellers of bulk rolls!
Anyway, all this has been gone into in some detail upthread. Pro160ns (for example) until recently presumably sold enough in 120/220 to make a batch at a specific interval, but not the 135 version (which is on a different base). It will have gone when a growth in that production interval combined with management's perception of the price point the market would accept. Kodak Alaris did some research a few years ago & found that their user base would rather accept some price increases in preference to product discontinuation. Their range was also much more aggressively rationalised and unified than Fuji's. If Fuji had chosen to make 2 C-41 films, 2-3 E-6 films and 1-2 BW films available globally & in all formats back about the late 2000s I suspect that they'd not find themselves dealing with the consequences now of making too many types of film in not enough formats for too many overly local markets.

Of cause - my theory why Fuji discontinued film after film is real strange.
But also remember Kodak was in a terrible situation with a minus of 97,5% less demand to their whole film program.
The situation at Fuji Film was obviously the same but they were not bankrupt. And Kodak stopped film production with E6 and discontinued many other films.
If you remember the parallel of sequence from discontinued films?
It was without any logic with Kodak films. It was just the first selling out films wich was first discontinued.
Remember Agfa's bankruptcy their produced masterrolls of Agfa bw films feed the remaining marked to a full decade.
And if I would have to decide to produce films like Fuji with big coating machines in color.........????????..?????
In such a manner - these coating lines have to run non stop with a minimum of
some weeks just to come in a profit zone with masterrols (due to calculation of costs and sales profit) .....??
I would not let them run to 11,5 hours and stop the line because of the ammound to the full years selling is just reached. (due to -98% ).
With total inefficient costs and possible + 350% more costs.
Perhaps Fujis management spend some million bucks to new coating machines
wich are much smaler AND wich will not reach the full 1 year production wir hin some hours. But I don't believe so.
To me it seams (as I personally would have done) they made a last "big "
production run from coating with most films they discontinued later - this makes real sence.
As we know from Agfa a big amound of normal volume produced masterrols could reach to years in a suddenly very smal market.
But I realy did not know if this is indeed so. I wasn't at Fuji production and have seen the decommissioned coating lines.
But to me it is the reason to stop some films (just because they were sold out)
So it is with Superia200...

with regards