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Is Fomadon R09 the Same as Rodinal?

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StoneNYC

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It's simple to grasp.
If at packaging, before leaving the warehouse, the bottle is not flushed the developer starts to oxidixe pretty quickly. When this very bottle of developer arrives at your doorstep some time has passed. If it's flushed with inter gas you'll gain much more residual shelf life than the non-flushed bottle. It's not that at Compard they are crazy and invest in flushing the developer: it has a cost.
I think Adonal doesn't flush the developer bottle to cut costs.

How do you even know they don't flush it? That video? Is that your only source?

Also, are you sure the Adonal formula isn't just better at lasting longer? :wink:

This is all irrelevant since you obviously haven't actually don't the testing to see if it lasts longer or not, have you aged both R09 and Adonal together in a controlled environment? Have you done the testing of aging after oxygen exposure in a controlled environment using scientific equipment to measure levels of chemical as well as processing film with the aged developer and comparing results of both? I doubt it...
 
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StoneNYC

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Isn't that sufficient?
I think it is.
A bottle cap tightened without some kind of seal underneath doesn't render the bottle air-tight.
And, no, I haven't done any tests since I don't use Rodinal, Adonal, Aph-09, R09 one-shot.
They just don't serve my needs.
Sorry.

EDIT: I went to check my two bottles that I have that I never even opened, I opened one and low and behold there is no seal, I really thought there was a seal I remembered one, but apparently not. The developer has been sitting for a few months at this point. It is not quite a light pink but a deeper pink at this point, but no crystals have formed at the bottom.

I wonder if my last bottle was the older Adonal before they closed the other factory, hmmm, well my empty could be off, either way it will be interesting to see what happens in 10 years :wink:
 
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miha

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What I'm trying to convey is a correct practice at Tetenal, Kodak, Ilford, Bka, you name it, regarding the packaging of developer.
All these firms package their developer with an air-tight seal on the bottle neck.

I don't want to split hairs, bur Kodak chemistry available in round plastic bottles, like their T-Max developer, isn't sealed anymore. Their older square bottles were. I still have some bottles of Kodak stop bath around that are sealed, also their T-Max fixer, only available in Europe, was sealed. Ilford is sealed, so is Tetenal as you say.
 
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Xmas

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Amazing dialogue in this thread try the horses mouth in this one.

Dead Link Removed

The p-aminophenol in lye cocktail keeps cause of its chemistry not cause of its glass bottle. Others like POTA will go off as it cools down cause of its chemistry.

You need to look after it cause it is drain cleaner.

If the supplier has used any of the generic recepies it is a Rodinal clone same time same temp see link above

Apparently Agfa included potassium bromide in the post 2004 cocktail & that may reduce base fog with some films but never seen much fog pre 2000.

If I have old film I do add KBr...

I always use rubber gloves cause I have skin problems and have done organic chemistry at Uni.

The p-aminophenols in lye will work when they are like Turkish coffee.
 

StoneNYC

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Kodak chemistry now is made by Tetenal and it's all sealed, at least the developer.
Tetenal seals all their chemistry, stop, fixer, all.

Have you ever squeezed all the air out of an ilford chemistry bottle before that's 2/3rds full? Within a few days the bottle is filled with air... All those plastic bottles, even from "the best" (in my opinion) B&W film company that exists, the plastic still is so porous it allows air in easily. None if this is relevant... Let's do testing instead of supposing...
 
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AgX

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A safety data sheet is to inform about a substance or mixture.

A mixture is something different than just the sum of the ingredients mixed you refer to.

Very true which is why I said there may be some reactions which take place on mixing. I'm sure that you must have missed this when reading. This was the point of my post. People tend to think that because the MSDS for Rodinal lists potassium hydroxide that the product contains a lot of this alkali. In actuality it combines with the p-aminophenol to form a phenolate and the bisulfite to form sulfite both of which are NOT listed in the MSDS. This is why I said that an MSDS needs to be read carefully and that a certain knowledge of chemistry is needed to get the full benefit of the document.



In the EU the regulation on Safety Data Sheets refers "substances in a mixture", not to substances to make a mixture of.

Thus a reaction between substances and a resulting occurrance of other substances or a change of concentration of the primary substances is taken into account.
 

dorff

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Very true which is why I said there may be some reactions which take place on mixing. I'm sure that you must have missed this when reading. This was the point of my post. People tend to think that because the MSDS for Rodinal lists potassium hydroxide that the product contains a lot of this alkali. In actuality it combines with the p-aminophenol to form a phenolate and the bisulfite to form sulfite both of which are NOT listed in the MSDS. This is why I said that an MSDS needs to be read carefully and that a certain knowledge of chemistry is needed to get the full benefit of the document.

Yes, you are correct. In this case, the manufacturer may argue that the hydroxide is still the worst of the potential chemicals in the mixture, and the p-aminophenol is going to revert to the form dictated by pH whenever ingested or absorbed, i.e. phenolate at high pH, phenol or phenol hydrochloride (or similar) at low pH (for instance in the stomach). So whether it is listed as p-aminophenol or potassium para-aminophenolate is much of a muchness. In other cases, not stating the final composition on the MSDS may be much more problematic.

I have proven (to myself at least) that it makes no difference in which form the aminophenol, sulphite and hydroxide are introduced as long as potassium to sodium is at least 1:2 (33%) on molar ratio (to attain full solubility). So one has the following options:
For aminophenol: Plain 4-aminophenol, paracetamol (aka acetaminophen, branded Tylenol), 4-aminophenol hydrochloride (aka hydroxyanilinium chloride), metol (aka Elon) etc. The important factor is that at high pH the functional group must be displaced to give the 4-aminophenolate salt along with the salt formed by the functional group itself (eg acetate for paracetamol). This latter salt travels along as non-paying passenger.
For hydroxide: Either potassium or sodium. I am sure caesium or lithium will also work, if you want to try :smile:.
For sulphite: Either sulphite or metabisulphite. If sodium hydroxide is used, then sulphite MUST be potassium version. All potassium is no problem, but all sodium will FAIL. For metabisulphite, additional hydroxide is needed. One can think of metabisulphite as "compact" sulphite which is "expanded" by the hydroxide. The worst case that will still work is sodium hydroxide with potassium metabisulphite, as it gives very close to the 1:2 ratio of K:Na.

A typical final composition needs to contain:
0.5 mol/L 4-aminophenolate
1.1 mol/L hydroxide
1.58 mol/L sulphite
<3.2 mol/L sodium (4.76 total K + Na is typical if paracetamol is used)
Part of the sodium/potassium content will be in the form of acetate, chloride or sulphate, in a 1:1 molar ratio with the aminophenolate, unless pure aminophenol is used rather than one of its derivatives.

I created a calculator to help those who want to play around with making their own developer. The final product will essentially give Rodinal results, and is long-lived. Paracetamol does not oxidise immediately, as it takes anything from a few hours to days for it to convert it to the aminophenolate. For that reason, it makes a very clear developer with no crystal formation when it cools down. There are formulas that end up with 0.4 mol/L aminophenolate, that use sodium sulphite and sodium hydroxide. This produces a developer with much inferior keeping properties, and which is plagued by excessive crystallisation.

Link to calculator:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
 

Gerald C Koch

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In the EU the regulation on Safety Data Sheets refers "substances in a mixture", not to substances to make a mixture of.

Thus a reaction between substances and a resulting occurrance of other substances or a change of concentration of the primary substances is taken into account.

If, as you say, the regulation in the EU is different then that is certainly an improvement. However the MSDS for Adonal dated 21.6.2010 still states what is mixed together to produce the developer. "Description: Mixture of the substances listed below with harmless additions." Was the regulation changed after the publication date for the developer?

http://www.adox.de/ADOX_ADONAL(E).pdf
 
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AgX

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I assume the wording "substance(-s) in a mixture" was usded in the regulation from the beginning.

The wording "mixture of the substances listed below" used by Adox is indeed ambiguous, it has both meanings we discussed above.


The samples given in the official guideline use the term "ingredients" followed by a listing of the substances contained in a mixture.
 
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Roger Cole

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Have you ever squeezed all the air out of an ilford chemistry bottle before that's 2/3rds full? Within a few days the bottle is filled with air... All those plastic bottles, even from "the best" (in my opinion) B&W film company that exists, the plastic still is so porous it allows air in easily. None if this is relevant... Let's do testing instead of supposing...

Well it isn't the plastic of the bottle, it's the fit of the cap to bottle. Otherwise it wouldn't keep before opening either, which it does. But once opened it's not good for storage. I learned this the hard way with Harman WT developer. It's not the bottle, it's the cap that doesn't seal back when the seal is broken. I now open a bottle of that WT developer and immediately pour it into two 16 oz brown plastic bottles (not the best either, I know, but WAY better than the original with the seal broken) and squeeze all the air out. I've kept it a year that way with no problems at all.
 

StoneNYC

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Well it isn't the plastic of the bottle, it's the fit of the cap to bottle. Otherwise it wouldn't keep before opening either, which it does. But once opened it's not good for storage. I learned this the hard way with Harman WT developer. It's not the bottle, it's the cap that doesn't seal back when the seal is broken. I now open a bottle of that WT developer and immediately pour it into two 16 oz brown plastic bottles (not the best either, I know, but WAY better than the original with the seal broken) and squeeze all the air out. I've kept it a year that way with no problems at all.

I learned the hard way today, the fixer cap wouldn't come off! I had to cut the damn bottle with a scissors! Good thing I keep spare bottles around "just in case" for the excess concentrate...
 

miha

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I read on another forum people complainig how hard it is to open a bottle of DDX. I remember I was barely able to open a bottle of Adox Neutol when 2/3 empty. The developed sucked up all the air and squeezed the bottle.
 
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StoneNYC

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I read on another forum people complainig how hard it is to open a bottle of DDX.

I use it about half way, then pour it into a 500ml glass bottle, that's just about the failure rate of all the ilford bottles before the caps start having trouble, especially if you have a habit of tightening the lid with any force (to get a good seal).
 

miha

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The price of a bottle including the childproof cap is in the range of a couple of cents, cheaper than a wine cork stopper alone. I wish they were made of higher quality. Although more material means higher environmental impact too.
 

StoneNYC

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The price of a bottle including the childproof cap is in the range of a couple of cents, cheaper than a wine cork stopper alone. I wish they were made of higher quality. Although more material means higher environmental impact too.

I'm just an organizer person, I wish they came out with a limited supply run of standard glass chemistry bottles (you know the brown bottles) in 1L with the ilford label on them and then when I got new chemistry in, I could just transfer to the better glass bottles and still have it be ilford bottles. I want Adox to do this with their Rodinal (as I said they mentioned that they bought the Rodinal name so I hope when they start using it, they do a limited glass bottle run as a promotion or something). Heck if nothing else, include a waterproof label to stick on your own bottle! :smile:
 

StoneNYC

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Glass bottles brake, but if you insist there is Schott Duran: http://www.us.schott.com/labware/english/download/bottles_caps_us.pdf But I prefer Jobo plastic bottles, they are simply the best for storing photo chemicals: http://www.jobo.com/Bottles.849.0.html

If B&H or P Formulary had these at the time I bought all mine, I might have gotten those instead! I like the measurements and label area, sadly I'm all stocked up now on the ugly brown ones... Well at least most people know what they are and not to drink out of them... Lol!
 

Soeren

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I have said this several times before but will say it again. An MSDS must be read carefully and with some knowledge of chemistry. The document does NOT tell the reader what is IN the product but rather what is MIXED to PRODUCE the product. There is a very big difference between the two. There will usually some reactions between the ingredients. There are not going to be any fumes from the ordinary use of this product as a developer.

That could be of interest for some. Most are more concerned about how to and certainly how not to handle the product, What to do and not to do if exposed and the kind and level of risk using it.
There may not be fumes but over time the substance will wapourize(word/spl?) and having it stand i a room for maybe severel months makes me worry if you could end up with some bad "climate" in the room.
Best regards
 
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Xmas

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HiSoren

A bottle of a P-aminopheno/high pH developer needs to be treated like drain cleaner, locked medicine chest if you have kids. The cyclic hydro carbon is not nice as well even the painkiller.

The modern packages all should have a tamper proof seal (like they were orange juice) and a child proof cap. The seal is keeping the drain cleaner in.

The normal plastic screw caps are good for 25 years part full bottle if the supplier has used any of the correct recipes, it does not need to say Rodinal, I used Azol for a long time, longest I kept Azol for was 10 years.

Decanting or filtering is not desirable only dripping into measuring flask over sink or bath is allowed.

There should not be much vapour with the plastic bottle but Id not keep it in a kitchen.

The w spelling is ok for vapour we are not fastidious.
 

Simon R Galley

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The price of a high quality plastic bottle with childproof cap and manufactured to chemical standards along with the detectable mouldings ( for limited vision customers ) is not a 'couple of cents' ...not at all or anywhere near....

Glass would be great, fully recyclable and re-usable and you can get it in green and brown and all different colours and shapes.....

Trouble is... I do not want to buy a million at once and if I buy a lot less I do not want to put the price of my chemistry up by a dollar a bottle ....and I would also rather like to be able to ship it.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
 

miha

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Hi Simon, HDPE bottles with childproof cap are easily found for 50 pence a piece and I imagine if I buy a 'million' at once, the price drops significantly. Detectable moulding etc is extra of course. Personally I'm fine with any container as have a set of quality bottles that serve me fine.
Cheers.
 

Alan Johnson

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In my test of 62 year old Azol it still worked:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

This shows that p-aminophenolate does not hydrolyse (react with water).
It is the only developing agent that has this property, metol and phenidone eventually fail by hydrolysis in sealed bottles.

So if one refers to the shelf life of a particular variant of Rodinal it is always oxidation by air that is referred to.
 

Xmas

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I bought a 100ml bottle of Azol about 62 used most up and later in 78 tried it and it was ok. Glass bottle rubber stopper & screw cap.

I had an Agfa daylight tank which needed continuous agitation and I only had times for Rodinal for HP3 I think.

Seems like yesterday.
 
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