Is film good in contrasty light?

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Sirius Glass

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I hope we can give him something positive to try that may help before he reaches for the bitter almond pills I fear the way this thread is going he may be giving up on film as a bad idea 😖

Would it make sense to wait until he has responded before he feels sucked into the vortex of doom 😟

pentaxuser

Well a large group of responders to this thread have torn and rented their clothes, poured ashes on their heads and are running around with their heads cut off will little or no reason to just give up in despair. Film will do the job, probably will little or no extra effort.
 
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Alan - I have no means of telling over the web what a specific neg or print looks like in any nuanced sense, or even what the real lighting was like. All I can comment is that if you want silhouettes, expose and develop for that effect. If you want to have perceptible shadows gradation, expose and develop for that instead. Or if you don't really know which you want, go with the latter strategy for sake of a versatile negative. One can always print bolder or more contrasty; but you can't add detail or texture that isn't captured on the negative to begin with. Yes, this also requires sensitivity to the quality of light on hand, and a distinct amount of experience in shooting and printing too. But I find this cat and mouse game with high contras lighting a lot of fun, and get some very nice prints too.

Sheet film is the most versatile because you can easily segregate different sheets for sake of separate levels of development. With roll film, one either needs an extra back or two (if your camera even used detachable backs), or else you develop for the preponderance of images on that particular roll. Still, with practice and the right film, long contrast scale scenes are no problem for me with either kind of equipment. But a real handheld spotmeter does help, For those who say, "simply bracket", OK; but light can shift quickly, and if one has looked at the price of 8x10 sheet film these days, or the weight of a lot of extra holders, they might think twice. If one has a machine-gunner mentality, a big view camera can be an excellent cure.

It didn't seem to me that the pictures were worth all that effort to squeeze more detail from the shadows. Since I don't develop or print myself, I may have a limited viewpoint. It's just that the light and the subject didn't seem to be good candidates for what the OP was trying to do.
 

markjwyatt

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I tried Formulary Wimberley Developer #2, Version D+ (aka WD2D+) with 120 Agfapan APX100, and I feel like it may have helped with dynamic range and maintaining more detail in shadows (look at the shadow under the tree). This is the first time I have tried Pyro, but I found the results interesting and worth considering. Here is a sample shot:


roots by Mark Wyatt, on Flickr
 
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DREW WILEY

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Wow pentaxuser; why the lamenting? Did anyone here instantly learn to drive a car or even ride a bicycle? Does that fact imply the bitter end to either mode of transportation? Why not just roll over and die now, and get it over with, or else rely on cardboard disposable cameras and one hour labs, and let them hear the complaints instead. Nobody is going to fall off the edge of the earth or get swallowed by sea monsters by attempting something new and actually relatively basic with a camera and darkroom. And no, light meters will not electrocute you.
 
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I was curious to see how much data is in the shadows and whether with these shots or more exposed shots you could bring it out better.
Originals by OP in post #28.
 

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pentaxuser

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Wow pentaxuser; why the lamenting? Did anyone here instantly learn to drive a car or even ride a bicycle? Does that fact imply the bitter end to either mode of transportation? Why not just roll over and die now, and get it over with, or else rely on cardboard disposable cameras and one hour labs, and let them hear the complaints instead. Nobody is going to fall off the edge of the earth or get swallowed by sea monsters by attempting something new and actually relatively basic with a camera and darkroom. And no, light meters will not electrocute you.

It is not me who is lamenting but if you re-read everything in our posts now at 81, I suspect that we may not be as encouraging to the OP and helping him with his problem as we might have been.

Sometimes our responses remind me of a British comedy film where the army sergeant is trying to boost the morale of the new recruits about becoming a soldier. He says: "Now look, lads, there are two ways to become a soldier. The easy way and the hard way. The easy way is ruddy hard and the hard way is ruddy impossible" 😁

Sometimes, in trying to be cruel to be kind we may without meaning to, "crush the spirit" so to speak

As I said earlier, it might be sensible to wait for the OP's feedback to see what he says or asks by way of his feedback to us . The best form of instruction usually involves feedback from the person who is being instructed, doesn't it?



pentaxuser
 

nmp

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I was curious to see how much data is in the shadows and whether with these shots or more exposed shots you could bring it out better.
Originals by OP in post #28.

Wow. If you are able to pull out that much detail from low quality jpgs....
 
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khrisrino

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So many great responses here. I don't fully understand all the techniques discussed here since I've never done any development myself but I'm noting down all the ideas to experiment with down the road. Thanks all!
I almost agree. In the sample pictures the OP posted, the trees are more than just silhouettes, there's some tone and I like them the way they are. But if the OP wants more midtones, the question to the OP becomes: Do you really need any detail in what's essentially the sky plus probably some sunlit leaves? I don't think so. Then the part of the scene you want isn't so terribly high in contrast. Just expose more and accept some parts will be blown out. So the issue is just the transition to blown out areas looking ugly. IMHO, film does help here a little, just because a bit of grain helps mask that ugly transition.
Correct. I'm not necessarily trying to compress the entire dynamic range as long as the blown out areas are more pleasing.
There's much you can accomplish with black and white film too, but mastering the techniques is no trivial undertaking. Phil Davis's Beyond The Zone System is an excellent if rather technical guide to really understanding how film behaves, and how it can be manipulated.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to look into some of the books mentioned in here.
OP it might be helpful if you were to tell us how much of the various b&w film techniques that have been mentioned makes sense to you and what you know of things like pre-flashing, zone system etc
Only theoretically. I've never developed film myself but I did shoot for a bit back in the 90s. I still have the very first roll of film I ever shot that I pulled out of my cabinet this morning and it was surprisingly almost entirely correctly exposed (easy scenes though)
Do you in fact sell prints of forest landscapes as has been assumed?
I've sold some landscapes but none in forests which is something new I'm trying out. I'm able to get pretty good images in forests under ideal conditions but since ideal conditions are pretty hard to come by in some areas (one of the images I got took almost 2 years of repeated visits) I'm trying to increase my output by experimenting with more techniques (film being one of them).

I was curious to see how much data is in the shadows and whether with these shots or more exposed shots you could bring it out better.
Originals by OP in post #28.
Yes the shadows do have detail. I've actually shot that scene dozens of times in various lighting conditions. I guess my problem is I'm unable to get a result that I like ... the tones just look worse and worse to my eyes the more I manipulate it. I can see couple responses that talk about the issues of trying to compress dynamic range which makes sense to me now.
 

koraks

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I guess my problem is I'm unable to get a result that I like

Right, I think we're getting at the essence now. It seems to me that your main issue is that you have trouble visualizing what you want the final photograph/print to look like as you look at the scene itself. Here's a clue: technique isn't going to help solve this. One more: in the end, it doesn't matter all that much if you record digital or onto film as long as you have a clear concept of the image you're making right from the start.

To put it bluntly, once more: for lack of a clear idea of the end result, you put your faith in technique and hope that something you recognize as valuable rolls out of the camera (wether digital or film based). Try to flip that around: start with the end result, determine what image information you need to accomplish that, and then record it. You'll find that whether you use film or digital for this is almost inconsequential.
 
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Alan, those are web examples, not real negs. Hard to tell.

A lot of detail has to be in the negatives if I could produce in a few minutes those results from just a screen copy of the OP's post.

With the original negatives, I'm sure someone like yourself could squeeze out a lot more in a darkroom. And a Photoshop expert could do similarly with scanned files of the negatives.

The point is the OP may have more in his existing negatives than he realizes and could try to work with what he has.
 
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Wow. If you are able to pull out that much detail from low quality jpgs....

Seeing how much I was able to pull out myself tells me I was wrong in my other posts that the lighting was not sufficient for what he wanted to do. The details seem to be there in the shadows. It just needs a tender touch to bring out properly.
 

pentaxuser

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Seeing how much I was able to pull out myself tells me I was wrong in my other posts that the lighting was not sufficient for what he wanted to do. The details seem to be there in the shadows. It just needs a tender touch to bring out properly.

Yes this seems to be good summary and conclusion, namely, that the details are there. So what was it you did Alan that improved the detail that you can pass on the OP? It would seem from his replies that he has a lab develop the film so has no control over that and I presume he prints his own pics so is there a technique in the dreaded PS that gets him the detail that he needs to know about?

Now that we know a lab develops his film then at least we know that homing in on developers, development techniques will be redundant

I suppose that if exposure can be improved to produce better negatives then this may make prints easier via hybrid but equally if scanning as you have demonstrated, can improve the prints then its a hybrid issue only

The only issue remaining for the OP is whether better technique with a film camera will lead to an improved print compared to his digital method.

We are back to the "Will film improve his pics beyond that which his digital camera will produce and if so by how much and will the cost of using film and a film camera in terms of cost, time and effort outweigh the improvement?

Only the OP can decide on this

Is this a reasonable summary of your situation, OP?

pentaxuser
 
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Aside from the fact that friends do not let friends do stand development, the OP is looking only a using film to see if it can give him the results he would like. He is not nor has he requested training as a expert film chemist with a full darkroom. One step at a time and see if you can be weaned away from stand development since we do have therapy for stand development recovery.

I need to go into stand development rehab. I've gotten lazy and can't agitate any more. One step at a time. 😂
 

Sirius Glass

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So many great responses here. I don't fully understand all the techniques discussed here since I've never done any development myself but I'm noting down all the ideas to experiment with down the road. Thanks all!

Correct. I'm not necessarily trying to compress the entire dynamic range as long as the blown out areas are more pleasing.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to look into some of the books mentioned in here.

Only theoretically. I've never developed film myself but I did shoot for a bit back in the 90s. I still have the very first roll of film I ever shot that I pulled out of my cabinet this morning and it was surprisingly almost entirely correctly exposed (easy scenes though)

I've sold some landscapes but none in forests which is something new I'm trying out. I'm able to get pretty good images in forests under ideal conditions but since ideal conditions are pretty hard to come by in some areas (one of the images I got took almost 2 years of repeated visits) I'm trying to increase my output by experimenting with more techniques (film being one of them).


Yes the shadows do have detail. I've actually shot that scene dozens of times in various lighting conditions. I guess my problem is I'm unable to get a result that I like ... the tones just look worse and worse to my eyes the more I manipulate it. I can see couple responses that talk about the issues of trying to compress dynamic range which makes sense to me now.

You do not need darkroom technique to bring out the shadows. Instead use the exposure part of the Zone System: Shoot box speed, take a reading of the darkest shadow details you want to show up and put that in Zone 2, Zone 3 or Zone 4. The hard part is to learn from experience which Zone is the best for you to choose. I recommend starting in Zone 4 and if that is not what you want, try it in Zone 3. If that is still not it try it in Zone 2. No special darkroom work will be needed with the modern negative films.
 

nmp

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Yes this seems to be good summary and conclusion, namely, that the details are there. So what was it you did Alan that improved the detail that you can pass on the OP? It would seem from his replies that he has a lab develop the film so has no control over that and I presume he prints his own pics so is there a technique in the dreaded PS that gets him the detail that he needs to know about?

Now that we know a lab develops his film then at least we know that homing in on developers, development techniques will be redundant

I suppose that if exposure can be improved to produce better negatives then this may make prints easier via hybrid but equally if scanning as you have demonstrated, can improve the prints then its a hybrid issue only

The only issue remaining for the OP is whether better technique with a film camera will lead to an improved print compared to his digital method.

We are back to the "Will film improve his pics beyond that which his digital camera will produce and if so by how much and will the cost of using film and a film camera in terms of cost, time and effort outweigh the improvement?

Only the OP can decide on this

Is this a reasonable summary of your situation, OP?

pentaxuser

The pics that OP showed were from digital camera not from a film. From his head post, it is apparent that he has not shot any film yet. If the OP does not know how to bring out those details from his digital Hassy like Alan did, he should have posted in the digital forum.

After 4 pages, the confusion is still unabated. Must be the heat wave we are going through....🙂

Niranjan
 

Donald Qualls

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Yes this seems to be good summary and conclusion, namely, that the details are there. So what was it you did Alan that improved the detail that you can pass on the OP? It would seem from his replies that he has a lab develop the film so has no control over that and I presume he prints his own pics so is there a technique in the dreaded PS that gets him the detail that he needs to know about?

Now that we know a lab develops his film then at least we know that homing in on developers, development techniques will be redundant

I suppose that if exposure can be improved to produce better negatives then this may make prints easier via hybrid but equally if scanning as you have demonstrated, can improve the prints then its a hybrid issue only

The only issue remaining for the OP is whether better technique with a film camera will lead to an improved print compared to his digital method.

We are back to the "Will film improve his pics beyond that which his digital camera will produce and if so by how much and will the cost of using film and a film camera in terms of cost, time and effort outweigh the improvement?

Only the OP can decide on this

Is this a reasonable summary of your situation, OP?

pentaxuser
Basically, I increased the brightness with the Shadow slider. Just don't overdo it. Then a few other minor adjustments to match my taste. Nothing heroic.
 
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My results raise a question for analog printers. Is there actually more data in these shadow areas than can be seen with the naked eye, especially with chromes? Or, is it just that you can't pull out the details chemically as I did digitally?

Since I don't have a darkroom, I have no idea what the answer is.
 

Donald Qualls

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This is what dodging and burning do. Dodging lightens too-dark areas (negative too thin) so detail preserved but not visible in a straight print can be seen; burning does the same for too-bright areas (negative too dense). The limitation on this, though, is that various methods tend to produce either haloes (common dodge/burn tools casting an out of focus shadow) or visible edges (cut masks). There are optical methods that involve a registered film mask that can improve these areas without either of those side effects, but they're much more difficult to master, take more time, and require registration tools.
 

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.........

It is possible using Zone system controls to generate a picture that has simultaneously tone in the sunlit highlights and tone in the deep shadows but the mid-tone contrast will be so muted that the picture will be very dull and probably not worth looking at.

.........

For darkroom printing, all one can do is try to get the contrast where the important detail is. There are techniques to optimize the mid tones, and the Zone system on its own doesn't do it.

I don't do digital, but have occasionally played with contrast curves and it is miraculous what can be done sliding contrast up a bit here, down a bit there there...

At the end of the day, the paper only has the range it has. Projected Kodachrome shows what film can capture.
 

Donald Qualls

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I'm not a dark room guy. But I've heard, "Expose for the shadows. Develop for the highlights." Wouldn't that work?

That's the one-liner version of the Zone System I was chastised for introducing pages ago. Specifically the expansion and contraction development of the second part was derided as "stepping on the sandwich."

I'll still use it when I have time to go through all the testing, because I understand it, and Fomapan and Shanghai films still respond well to development controls, within limits.
 

Sirius Glass

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I'm not a dark room guy. But I've heard, "Expose for the shadows. Develop for the highlights." Wouldn't that work?

I expose for the shadows and develop normally and that provides the shadow detail that I want.
 
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