Is Bergger Pancro 400 done, or just out of production again, for a long time?

[abruzzi]

I don't have any Bergger packaging around, but I'd be curious to know if it says which country the film is manufactured in.

Made in Germany. (on a 120 box of Pancro400) I assume that means Invisiocoat?

 

[abruzzi]

I just looked, the Bergger website now has 120, 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 in stock.

B&H has 8x10 in stock. Other than B&H I haven't been able to find any stock in the US, so I hope those sheets are imported soon. My 4x5 stock is almost depleted.

 

[payral]

Just prior to the pandemic they had sold the best dupe film I've ever used. .Great results and virtually scratch proof. Whoever made it must have gone out Business
Here's some of the facts. They have the formulas from the now defunct guillemont photo company which was the longest standing photo materials company in the world prior to its demise
Zone VI paper was made by them.
So don't be fooled thinking they actually make anything
Im betting that the Chinese will be making more of the materials we appreciate
Cant recite the company but they posted here about having a coating machine and working on a cubic type film
It only makes sense in a revolving world of commerce that they are having a hard time sourcing materials to sell with tariffs etc.; and companies probably asking for cash upfront to make products

Print Film from Bergger is available again at least in France and around.

 

[retina_restoration]

I saw that Pancro 400 was available to buy direct from Bergger, but when I attempted to make a purchase, my attempt was rejected - something about no delivery options available for the USA. F*ck ‘em.

 

[albireo]

Oh wow glad I found this thread. Bergger Pancro in 120 is available (and quite cheap!) at MacoDirect too. Just ordered a bunch of rolls.

I've always wanted to try it in 120. I quite liked it in 35mm.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

MacoDirect shows all Bergger films sold out.
Bergger dot com seems to only have 120.
This stuff sure goes FAST!

 

[albireo]

MacoDirect shows all Bergger films sold out.

Odd - I see MacoDirect having the 120 as

Ready to ship today,
Delivery time appr. 1-4 working days

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Odd - I see MacoDirect having the 120 as

Yup! Missed that. 120 still in stock. Thanks!

 

[miha]

My understanding is that Bergger Pancro 400 shares some lineage with AgfaPan APX 400, given that it is coated at InovisCoat on former Agfa equipment by ex-Agfa engineers.

 

[Ian Grant]

Just prior to the pandemic they had sold the best dupe film I've ever used. .Great results and virtually scratch proof. Whoever made it must have gone out Business
Here's some of the facts. They have the formulas from the now defunct guillemont photo company which was the longest standing photo materials company in the world prior to its demise
Zone VI paper was made by them.
So don't be fooled thinking they actually make anything
Im betting that the Chinese will be making more of the materials we appreciate
Cant recite the company but they posted here about having a coating machine and working on a cubic type film
It only makes sense in a revolving world of commerce that they are having a hard time sourcing materials to sell with tariffs etc.; and companies probably asking for cash upfront to make products

Guilleminot was founded in 1858, it was the third-oldest photographic company, Tetenal was founded earlier in 1847, and here in the UK Johnsons sold silver nitrate and other chemistry to Thomas Wedge Wedgwood in the 1790s, and Herschel and Fox Talbot in the 1830s. They ceased trading 2018.

Ian

 

[albireo]

My understanding is that Bergger Pancro 400 shares some lineage with AgfaPan APX 400, given that it is coated at InovisCoat on former Agfa equipment by ex-Agfa engineers.

Thanks Miha, do you know if there's any current film that shares lineage with the old Agfapan APX 100? Any of the Lomo films perhaps?

 

[miha]

Thanks Miha, do you know if there's any current film that shares lineage with the old Agfapan APX 100? Any of the Lomo films perhaps?

Sorry, no such film exist, not to my knowledge, the last ones were Adox Silvermax / Scala 160.

 

[abruzzi]

Ask your dear president !

It’s not that. I put in a Mexican address since I live 30 miles from the border and know people that could receive for me. Still “no delivery options available.”

We’ll have to wait for CatLabs to import some. I have plenty of other sizes but right now I want some 4x5 because I’m almost out.

 

[Lachlan Young]

do you know if there's any current film that shares lineage with the old Agfapan APX 100? Any of the Lomo films perhaps?

Much of what was specific to APX100 was the spectral sensitivity - with a significant peak in the green, and a drop-off to a lower plateau in the red. Orwo NP100, UN54, and Lomo Potsdam 100 are, give-or-take additional anti-halation treatment all more-or-less identical APX 100 derivatives, but with rather different spectral sensitivity to APX - they don't have the green peak, and are more sensitive in the red where APX had dropped to a lower plateau. Adox CHS 100 II is also a deriative in a similar vein, with roughly the same spectral shift relative to APX 100 (Silvermax used up the last of the APX 100/ Scala (essentially the same emulsions etc, from all accounts, other than silver gsm level for reversal) sensitisers from what I understand) as the rest of the Inovis BW products, but now made on Adox's plant. Acros II has a green bump too, but later than APX 100, and again with the red sensitivity staying higher longer (and much more suppressed blue). Current TMax 400 is a bit closer to the style of sensitisation of APX 100 (TMY-II also having more suppressed blue like Acros) which seemingly harked back to an earlier era of panchromatic sensitivity, but those shorter red sensitisations seem to have made a return as they seem to render scenes somewhat closer to how the human eye sees/ perceives them. Experimenting with Wratten #11/#13 (X0/ X1/ yellow-green or green) filtration or even something like Ortho Plus may be worthwhile for what you are after.

APX 400 didn't have that sensitisation (more conventional hyperpanchromatic instead), and what became Pancro 400, Orwo P400/ N74+ and Lomo Berlin Kino was seemingly from an attempt to Tri-X-ify APX 400's characteristics around the time of Kodak's bankruptcy.

 

[albireo]

Much of what was specific to APX100 was the spectral sensitivity - with a significant peak in the green, and a drop-off to a lower plateau in the red. Orwo NP100, UN54, and Lomo Potsdam 100 are, give-or-take additional anti-halation treatment all more-or-less identical APX 100 derivatives, but with rather different spectral sensitivity to APX - they don't have the green peak, and are more sensitive in the red where APX had dropped to a lower plateau. Adox CHS 100 II is also a deriative in a similar vein, with roughly the same spectral shift relative to APX 100 (Silvermax used up the last of the APX 100/ Scala (essentially the same emulsions etc, from all accounts, other than silver gsm level for reversal) sensitisers from what I understand) as the rest of the Inovis BW products, but now made on Adox's plant. Acros II has a green bump too, but later than APX 100, and again with the red sensitivity staying higher longer (and much more suppressed blue). Current TMax 400 is a bit closer to the style of sensitisation of APX 100 (TMY-II also having more suppressed blue like Acros) which seemingly harked back to an earlier era of panchromatic sensitivity, but those shorter red sensitisations seem to have made a return as they seem to render scenes somewhat closer to how the human eye sees/ perceives them. Experimenting with Wratten #11/#13 (X0/ X1/ yellow-green or green) filtration or even something like Ortho Plus may be worthwhile for what you are after.

APX 400 didn't have that sensitisation (more conventional hyperpanchromatic instead), and what became Pancro 400, Orwo P400/ N74+ and Lomo Berlin Kino was seemingly from an attempt to Tri-X-ify APX 400's characteristics around the time of Kodak's bankruptcy.

Thank you @Lachlan Young !

 

[Lachlan Young]

@albireo One other aspect about the current Inovis/ Orwo et al post-Agfa derivatives is that they have somewhat less fine granularity than APX100 had (which was nominally a little finer than Kodak TMY-II), again probably related to components that are/ were not economically viable to re-synthesise/ replace.

 

[albireo]

@albireo One other aspect about the current Inovis/ Orwo et al post-Agfa derivatives is that they have somewhat less fine granularity than APX100 had (which was nominally a little finer than Kodak TMY-II), again probably related to components that are/ were not economically viable to re-synthesise/ replace.

Anecdotally I have personal experience of this - I have found Adox CHS II 100 to be noticeably grainier than Adox Silvermax (which I understand was the most recent closest relative of Agfapan APX 100).

 

[retina_restoration]

Anecdotally I have personal experience of this - I have found Adox CHS II 100 to be noticeably more grainy than Adox Silvermax (which I understand was the most recent closest relative of Agfapan APX 100).

Adox CHS 100 II is more conspicuously grainy than pretty much any other film in the 100 ASA category. It looks more like a 400 ASA cubic grain film. But it has excellent acutance and a unique spectral response (which you’ll either love or hate).

 

[lecarp]

We don’t really know what the supply chain issues are, so we can only speculate. Companies like Bergger - who do not actually make anything; they only contract other manufacturers to make things for their brand - obfuscate the origins of the products they se

I will add that having been doing this for a very long time and having used there products, there have always been supply issues and gaps in availability. They have come up with some unique and lovely formulas over the years and that is what is important, the formula.

 

[polaromar]

Much of what was specific to APX100 was the spectral sensitivity - with a significant peak in the green, and a drop-off to a lower plateau in the red. Orwo NP100, UN54, and Lomo Potsdam 100 are, give-or-take additional anti-halation treatment all more-or-less identical APX 100 derivatives, but with rather different spectral sensitivity to APX - they don't have the green peak, and are more sensitive in the red where APX had dropped to a lower plateau. Adox CHS 100 II is also a deriative in a similar vein, with roughly the same spectral shift relative to APX 100 (Silvermax used up the last of the APX 100/ Scala (essentially the same emulsions etc, from all accounts, other than silver gsm level for reversal) sensitisers from what I understand) as the rest of the Inovis BW products, but now made on Adox's plant. Acros II has a green bump too, but later than APX 100, and again with the red sensitivity staying higher longer (and much more suppressed blue). Current TMax 400 is a bit closer to the style of sensitisation of APX 100 (TMY-II also having more suppressed blue like Acros) which seemingly harked back to an earlier era of panchromatic sensitivity, but those shorter red sensitisations seem to have made a return as they seem to render scenes somewhat closer to how the human eye sees/ perceives them. Experimenting with Wratten #11/#13 (X0/ X1/ yellow-green or green) filtration or even something like Ortho Plus may be worthwhile for what you are after.

APX 400 didn't have that sensitisation (more conventional hyperpanchromatic instead), and what became Pancro 400, Orwo P400/ N74+ and Lomo Berlin Kino was seemingly from an attempt to Tri-X-ify APX 400's characteristics around the time of Kodak's bankruptcy.

Thank you for the very interesting explanation. Based on what you've said, I wonder if the Tasma aerial films (Type 25 and Type 42) have a more similar spectral response to APX100, as they have extended sensitivity to shorter wavelengths with reduced red and no IR sensitivity. Of course, grain and contrast would be very different.

 

[retina_restoration]

I will add that having been doing this for a very long time and having used there products, there have always been supply issues and gaps in availability. They have come up with some unique and lovely formulas over the years and that is what is important, the formula.

The unique properties of Pancro 400 are irrelevant if you cannot BUY it for five years in a row!

 

[albireo]

The unique properties of Pancro 400 are irrelevant if you cannot BUY it for five years in a row!

Move to Europe! Plenty of Bergger stuff about, and we need a Retina restorer over here, loads of people with early onset retinal detachment!