Intro to daylight flash photography

[hwy17]

Hello I'm starting this thread to solicit any shortcuts that might be available in my pursuit of daylight flash photography.

I've pursued analog photography for a year now largely ignoring flash.

As far as system cameras I am into these so far: Canon EOS Rebel 2000 > Nikon F80 > Nikon F4 > Pentax 645n

My first flash purchase was a Nikon SB-28 which I have working with TTL Matrix Balanced Fill Flash on the F80 at a max sync speed of 1/125. I believe the SB-28 can do the same with the F4 at 1/250 but I have not succeeded in getting them to communicate yet.

I discover now of course, after all this investment, that high speed flash sync is something I desire and I've acquired a bunch of camera systems that cannot do it. No wonder they exist on the affordable end of the spectrum.

So that brings me back to my Rebel 2000, which I've acquired a 550EX for, and appears to offer high speed multi sync up to its native max 1/2000. It appears to do this only in shutter priority mode.

My first question would be what logic should I apply to shutter speed selection on the Rebel 2000? With available light I would normally just choose the fastest shutter speed that I can get a correct exposure with, but should I do the same for daylight fill flash shooting or should I prefer to go down to about 1/500 to allow the multi sync flash a wider sync window?

Also welcome any comments about where to go from here. Whether there's a goose to chase here or if I should learn to steady my hands for 1/125 on the F80, or whether to accept my fate that I'm on a path to inexorable F6 desire now and the magical nirvana of iTTL.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hello I'm starting this thread to solicit any shortcuts that might be available in my pursuit of daylight flash photography.

I've pursued analog photography for a year now largely ignoring flash.

As far as system cameras I am into these so far: Canon EOS Rebel 2000 > Nikon F80 > Nikon F4 > Pentax 645n

My first flash purchase was a Nikon SB-28 which I have working with TTL Matrix Balanced Fill Flash on the F80 at a max sync speed of 1/125. I believe the SB-28 can do the same with the F4 at 1/250 but I have not succeeded in getting them to communicate yet.

I discover now of course, after all this investment, that high speed flash sync is something I desire and I've acquired a bunch of camera systems that cannot do it. No wonder they exist on the affordable end of the spectrum.

So that brings me back to my Rebel 2000, which I've acquired a 550EX for, and appears to offer high speed multi sync up to its native max 1/2000. It appears to do this only in shutter priority mode.

My first question would be what logic should I apply to shutter speed selection on the Rebel 2000? With available light I would normally just choose the fastest shutter speed that I can get a correct exposure with, but should I do the same for daylight fill flash shooting or should I prefer to go down to about 1/500 to allow the multi sync flash a wider sync window?

Also welcome any comments about where to go from here. Whether there's a goose to chase here or if I should learn to steady my hands for 1/125 on the F80, or whether to accept my fate that I'm on a path to inexorable F6 desire now and the magical nirvana of iTTL.

select the fastest sync speed on your camera and determine the f-stop for it. Then set the power of your flash to produce that f/stop. Now. flash and daylight are balanced!

 

[fgorga]

Take a look at the very extensive information here: https://strobist.blogspot.com/

Probably more that you want, but it is good information.

 

[MattKing]

You may find you are in for a bit of frustration, if your goal is to work with focal plane shutter equipped cameras - which describes almost all the offerings available for your cameras - and high shutter speeds.
The camera and flash systems which combine focal plane shutters and electronic flashes and high shutter speeds only do so if you can accept relatively low power lighting. That is because the flashes accomplish this by emitting multiple, relatively low energy bursts, rather than a single high power one.
So that means you are often limited to some combination of fast lenses, fast film, and close flash-to-subject distances to make this work.
And that combination may limit the usefulness for you.
The best solution to the problem is to use flash with some relatively special purpose leaf shutter equipped lenses. The Pentax users can advise if that specialized lens choice option is available for your 645N - I don't believe it is available for your other cameras.
The leaf shutter approach is one major reason that Mamiya C series TLRs, most Hasselblads, Bronica SLRs and Mamiya RB67 cameras and their ilk were so popular with wedding photographers - because they were well suited to using fill flash.
Outside of leaf shutters or situations where low power flash will work for you, the best solution is a camera with a focal plane shutter that permits higher speed flash synch - perhaps as high as a 1/250th of a second. And then of course limit yourself to that maximum synch speed or slower when using flash. I'm not sure if any of the 35mm cameras on your list offer that advantage.

 

[hwy17]

You may find you are in for a bit of frustration, if your goal is to work with focal plane shutter equipped cameras - which describes almost all the offerings available for your cameras - and high shutter speeds.
The camera and flash systems which combine focal plane shutters and electronic flashes and high shutter speeds only do so if you can accept relatively low power lighting. That is because the flashes accomplish this by emitting multiple, relatively low energy bursts, rather than a single high power one.
So that means you are often limited to some combination of fast lenses, fast film, and close flash-to-subject distances to make this work.
And that combination may limit the usefulness for you.
The best solution to the problem is to use flash with some relatively special purpose leaf shutter equipped lenses. The Pentax users can advise if that specialized lens choice option is available for your 645N - I don't believe it is available for your other cameras.
The leaf shutter approach is one major reason that Mamiya C series TLRs, most Hasselblads, Bronica SLRs and Mamiya RB67 cameras and their ilk were so popular with wedding photographers - because they were well suited to using fill flash.
Outside of leaf shutters or situations where low power flash will work for you, the best solution is a camera with a focal plane shutter that permits higher speed flash synch - perhaps as high as a 1/250th of a second. And then of course limit yourself to that maximum synch speed or slower when using flash. I'm not sure if any of the 35mm cameras on your list offer that advantage.

Yeah this is what I'm realizing. There are two leaf shutter lenses I can use on my 645N but they are manual focus only and they don't work with flash sync via hot shoe. I didn't even research to find out if it does TTL that way.

I think I am headed down the course of lower power lighting with multiple flashes. That's what's brought me back to my Rebel 2000. I will put a test roll through it to see what it's like.

 

[Dan Fromm]

You may find you are in for a bit of frustration, if your goal is to work with focal plane shutter equipped cameras - which describes almost all the offerings available for your cameras - and high shutter speeds.

I hate to use them but putting an ND filter in front of the lens is equivalent to putting slow film behind it.

OP, which film(s) do you want to use, which aperture(s) do you want to use and which subjects? And what range of flash-to-subject distances to you want to work at?

Without this information, all we can do is give you vague answers based on general principles.

 

[MattKing]

I hate to use them but putting an ND filter in front of the lens is equivalent to putting slow film behind it.

Actually, the challenge is that you need high speed film, if you are trying to use the flash as the main light source.
If you are attempting to use it with fill flash, my brain hurts with the complexity!

Yeah this is what I'm realizing. There are two leaf shutter lenses I can use on my 645N but they are manual focus only and they don't work with flash sync via hot shoe. I didn't even research to find out if it does TTL that way.

Kids these days
When I did most of this, I used flashes with built in sensors. The TTl equipped equipment I have is early stuff, and I rarely use the function.
And as for AF lenses, all my wedding work and most of everything else was with manual focus.

 

[Paul Howell]

Depending on your budget, I would think about a Minolta 9 with HHs 5400 flash that will syn to the 9's top shutter speed of 1/1200 of a second. The last top of the line Minolta body the 9 has a onboard flash that will syn up to 1/300 of a second. There is flash compensation dial that allows to manually control the auto flash up to 3 stops - + and flash bracketing and will work the matrix metering. I would guess that the EOS IV, Nikon F 5 or 6 will have similar features.

https://www.cameramanuals.org/minolta_pdf/minolta_maxxum_9.pdf

 

[Dan Fromm]

Actually, the challenge is that you need high speed film, if you are trying to use the flash as the main light source.
If you are attempting to use it with fill flash, my brain hurts with the complexity!


Kids these days
When I did most of this, I used flashes with built in sensors. The TTl equipped equipment I have is early stuff, and I rarely use the function.

It depends. Back when I shot flowers, insects and such in broad daylight with ISO 25 Kodachrome and low power flashes at short flash-to-subject distances. I got consistent good exposure.

Fill flash? More powerful flashes such as Vivitar 283s and auto-exposure.

These days I use relatively inexpensive (used prices) Nikon i-TTL flashes with a D810. 1/320 shutter speed, ISO dialed all the way down to minimize exposure from ambient light.

Until the OP gives us more specifics we're just guessing about what might be right.

 

[hwy17]

OP, which film(s) do you want to use, which aperture(s) do you want to use and which subjects? And what range of flash-to-subject distances to you want to work at?

E100 and Provia are my primary goal. 200 and 400 color negative as well sometimes but I'm mainly interested in 100 speed.

Mainly shoot in broad daylight and direct sun, with subjects 5-15ft away although I am also interested in what can be done at 30-40ft.

Don't need a lot from the flash, just looking to add an extra "magazine sheen" to the result. I find it doesn't take a lot of extra light to produce something that's striking compared to today's generally flash free amateur photography.

 

[hwy17]

Kids these days

When I got into this hobby it was the chemistry and processing that really drew me in. As for the cameras, I'd prefer automatic or better yet hand it to someone else to point and shoot

 

[hwy17]

Mainly shoot in broad daylight and direct sun, with subjects 5-15ft away although I am also interested in what can be done at 30-40ft.

By direct sun I mean across the background. Family photo subjects naturally tend to face themselves away from that light so that's what the flash would be for to fill.

 

[IpseLux]

I’m enjoying this post, because in this age which often demands that cameras photograph in less and less light, it seems many have forgotten the lovely art of flash, and the skill and craft it requires in photography. Flash photography is photography. And for me, the lessons from the studio, with strobes contributed a great deal to my understanding of photography as a whole.
But if I may, why is it imperative that outdoor photography use high speed sync? I know the commenter expresses interest in this. I’m not criticizing that. But as general curiosity I ask why? Even my modest FM2n or N90s will sync at 1/250th of a sec? An N70 will do 1/125th? Those are perfectly acceptable shutter speeds to shoot outdoors.
I suspect I’m missing the obvious. But in my mind flash photography needs not compete with the outdoor exposure, but complement it, adding light to areas that may be 1 or two stops dark.
And they certainly not need be shot from the camera’s hot shoe, but could be placed on stands thru out the scene, away from view or even outside the frame. A strong flash guide number, along with a zoom head to focus light on a part of the subject will work.
Many photographers consider flash, available light. Sure, I tend to agree, if it’s there and handy use it.
Curious to hear more comments in this thread.
Kind regards.

 

[MattKing]

By direct sun I mean across the background. Family photo subjects naturally tend to face themselves away from that light so that's what the flash would be for to fill.

Perfect for leaf shutter lenses.
And manual focus, of course.

 

[ant!]

Yeah this is what I'm realizing. There are two leaf shutter lenses I can use on my 645N but they are manual focus only and they don't work with flash sync via hot shoe. I didn't even research to find out if it does TTL that way.

The two leaf shutter lenses, I have the 135mm LS lens which I got in a lens bundle, use a sync cable, but you can buy a very cheap generic adapter to a hot shoe if your flash doesn't support direct cable. It's not TTL, but any cheap "auto flash" with a sensor inside the flash works. I have a Minolta 360px and a Pentax AF 280T, but any would work fine since no specific TTL protocol is needed.

 

[Dan Fromm]

E100 and Provia are my primary goal. 200 and 400 color negative as well sometimes but I'm mainly interested in 100 speed.

Mainly shoot in broad daylight and direct sun, with subjects 5-15ft away although I am also interested in what can be done at 30-40ft.

Don't need a lot from the flash, just looking to add an extra "magazine sheen" to the result. I find it doesn't take a lot of extra light to produce something that's striking compared to today's generally flash free amateur photography.

Thanks for the reply.

It depends. I'm sorry, but which apertures do you want to use?

Thanks to the inverse square law, 30 - 40 feet requires quite a powerful flash. So, for that matter does 15 feet.

I don't mean to insult you, but you should learn how to use Guide Number arithmetic. You should be able to find GNs for flashes by looking in their user manuals.

f/8 at ISO x and 30 feet requires an ISO x GN of 240. 40 feet, 320. 15 feet, 120. 5 feet, 40. Pick your shooting aperture, pick your ISO, calculate the shutter speed that will give good exposure at your desired aperture. Then decide how much more from flash and less ambient you want, and you'll know which flashes will do the job. You don't need TTL flash, a flash with manually adjustable output will do.

 

[IpseLux]

Just saw this video. Multiple flash bursts by dedicated units ….

High-Speed Sync 101: Everything You Need to Know!​

46K views · 1 year ago
#HighSpeedSync #HSS #FlashPhotography
...more

John Gress​

91.9K

 

[wiltw]

Generally speaking High Synch Speed flash means a loss of two f/stops of power (in some brands, closer to -3EV!) So, for example, if the Guide Number says you can get to 16' at f/11, (GN = 176) for the film speed you are shooting, realistically you might become limited to max distance of 8' for full power flash exposure with HSS (if you only lose -2EV of intensity while using HSS). Shooting weddings decades ago, I chose a leaf shutter equipped camera (Bronica ETRSi) to shoot flash because the distance limitations of HSS. When the concept was launched by Olympus in conjunction with the OM-4T and F-280 flash in the 1980s, it was a real ho-hum. So no big thrill for me when HSS was brought into the digital SLR.
If you use HSS to provide flash fill (not use as main light for exposure) and use it for -1EV fill, the distance limitations of HSS are less imposing but still there...it works to 11' as -1EV fill while shooting at f/11!

 

[hwy17]

I’m enjoying this post, because in this age which often demands that cameras photograph in less and less light, it seems many have forgotten the lovely art of flash, and the skill and craft it requires in photography. Flash photography is photography. And for me, the lessons from the studio, with strobes contributed a great deal to my understanding of photography as a whole.
But if I may, why is it imperative that outdoor photography use high speed sync? I know the commenter expresses interest in this. I’m not criticizing that. But as general curiosity I ask why? Even my modest FM2n or N90s will sync at 1/250th of a sec? An N70 will do 1/125th? Those are perfectly acceptable shutter speeds to shoot outdoors.
I suspect I’m missing the obvious. But in my mind flash photography needs not compete with the outdoor exposure, but complement it, adding light to areas that may be 1 or two stops dark.
And they certainly not need be shot from the camera’s hot shoe, but could be placed on stands thru out the scene, away from view or even outside the frame. A strong flash guide number, along with a zoom head to focus light on a part of the subject will work.
Many photographers consider flash, available light. Sure, I tend to agree, if it’s there and handy use it.
Curious to hear more comments in this thread.
Kind regards.

My desire for faster than 1/125 certainly and faster than 1/250 is my unsteady hands. 1/500 at 50mm is much safer for me to get crisp results, which I value, and my subjects are also often moving as well.

As for why it must be on the hot shoe, I'm just not yet prepared to go beyond one handheld contraption. I might get there, but ideally I prefer to have something I can hand to a family member and say here, point and shoot.

 

[MattKing]

I used to do this most satisfyingly with flashes with a metric guide number of 60 - one or more of the Metz 60CT line.
Those were great, really beefy flashes with great auto-exposure systems built into the flash.
And they cost hundreds of dollars decades ago.
And that was with leaf shutter lenses!
That big, bright yellow light source up there in the sky is really quite difficult to match when it comes to light levels.

 

[MattKing]

My desire for faster than 1/125 certainly and faster than 1/250 is my unsteady hands. 1/500 at 50mm is much safer for me to get crisp results, which I value, and my subjects are also often moving as well.

As for why it must be on the hot shoe, I'm just not yet prepared to go beyond one handheld contraption. I might get there, but ideally I prefer to have something I can hand to a family member and say here, point and shoot.

In that case, you need to either move inside, or limit yourself to using light supplied by open sky or heavy overcast, with little or no flash added.

 

[hwy17]

Thanks for the reply.

It depends. I'm sorry, but which apertures do you want to use?

Thanks to the inverse square law, 30 - 40 feet requires quite a powerful flash. So, for that matter does 15 feet.

I don't mean to insult you, but you should learn how to use Guide Number arithmetic. You should be able to find GNs for flashes by looking in their user manuals.

f/8 at ISO x and 30 feet requires an ISO x GN of 240. 40 feet, 320. 15 feet, 120. 5 feet, 40. Pick your shooting aperture, pick your ISO, calculate the shutter speed that will give good exposure at your desired aperture. Then decide how much more from flash and less ambient you want, and you'll know which flashes will do the job. You don't need TTL flash, a flash with manually adjustable output will do.

I don't mind about aperture really, I'll take whatever allows me to shoot 1/500 or faster.

Don't worry I won't get insulted, one of the things that allowed me to actually enjoy photography after fits and starts at it earlier in life is I don't take it seriously now. I don't strive to be an expert although I know there's a limit to how much you can ask for advice on things you're not willing to research adequately yourself. I will fully admit that I'm looking for the most automatic experience possible and to that end, I am probably doomed to seek an F6 in the end.

 

[hwy17]

In that case, you need to either move inside, or limit yourself to using light supplied by open sky or heavy overcast, with little or no flash added.

Little flash is ok, that's an acceptable outcome for me. Just trying to get to little bit of flash at faster than 1/250. I'll be interested to see what the results with the Rebel 2000 are like.

 

[MattKing]

Little flash is ok, that's an acceptable outcome for me. Just trying to get to little bit of flash at faster than 1/250. I'll be interested to see what the results with the Rebel 2000 are like.

If you are willing to accept nothing much more than a catchlight added to the eyes, this might do.
If your subjects are moving quickly, you might see some ghosting.

 

[Shane Knight]

I've had many years working with flash in-studio and outdoors; mainly portraits and horses (20 years ago). It's frustrating at first and takes a lot of practice. I always shot in manual cameral exposure and manual flash mode with mainly 35mm (250 sync for outside @100iso). Never cared for the auto/TTL. I was a control freak.

When shooting outside, you need to consider two light sources and how to control them. Aperture determines the amount of flash and shutter speed controls the available light.

I strongly suggest an incident light meter, $15 Vivitar 283 Flash, simple stand attached via cable or better yet, get some used Pocket Wizards.

1. Determine opitmal aperture for your subject matter.
2. Set flash power and spacing determine with a hand-held meter set on the above aperture.
2. With aperture set, determine in-camera exposure for available light with shutter speed.

Your good to shoot. Underexpose the available light (shutter speed) If you want more light on subject to make background pop.

Btw, I would use an equivalent digital camera and external battery pack just for learning the ratios of balancing available light and flash. Once you are familiar with their relationship then move to film and have some real fun. I was lucky to learn flash from an in-studio lab. I could shoot a set up and see my results in about 30ish minutes. Readjust and go again. The good ol' days when the film was cheap and the processing was dirty

Also, don't worry too much about slow shutter speeds. 250th sec is way more than enough to steady a 50mm lens. Remember, no matter how long you're shutter speed is, the light from the flash is on the subject for only about a 1000th of a second. It will sharpen the results (in most cases). Try it for yourself; flash photograph an object in a pitch black room. Shoot several frames hand-held while adjusting the shutter speed from one sec upto fastest sync. They will probably look the same.

Good Luck and have fun.
SK