Increasing grain for traditional grain films

warden · Jan 12, 2020

Howdy.

If I want to double or triple the apparent grain size of a film (say, Tri-X or HP5) without affecting the speed of the film, how would that be done? Can it be done?

I generally use "normal" developers like Xtol, TMax, DDX and Ilfosol3, but I'm happy to experiment if there is a developer that does what I'm after.

Thanks!

P.S. I s searched the forums and didn't see quite what I'm asking for but if this is a well trodden subject that I've missed I'd appreciate a link.

BSP · Jan 12, 2020

Underexposing + overdeveloping in Rodinal gives me all the grain I can handle.

MattKing · Jan 12, 2020

I'm assuming "use a smaller format" isn't the solution you were looking for.
Try a much more active developer, such as a print developer like Dektol. You may have to experiment to get development times dialed in.
Higher acutance developers will increase the appearance of grain, even if the grain itself isn't increased.
If you develop to higher contrast, the grain will be more apparent.

koraks · Jan 12, 2020

jawarden said:
triple the apparent grain size

That's going to be tough. Grain is to a large extent inherent to the film. So the obvious choice would be to get some Delta3200 and enjoy its significant grain.
But if it needs to be HP5+, I'm with the other posters. Get a nice and active developer like paper developer, or plain old rodinal. Patrick Gainer's vitamin C developer formula also gives rather emphasized grain. Heck, even pyrocat with extended development gives some pretty obvious grain with HP5+. Whatever you do, just develop liberally and grain will grow up to a certain point. I'd only forego the xtol as it tends to give somewhat less grainy negatives (which is exactly why I like it!)

warden · Jan 12, 2020

MattKing said:
I'm assuming "use a smaller format" isn't the solution you were looking for.
Try a much more active developer, such as a print developer like Dektol. You may have to experiment to get development times dialed in.
Higher acutance developers will increase the appearance of grain, even if the grain itself isn't increased.
If you develop to higher contrast, the grain will be more apparent.

Yeah I've already reduced to 35mm negatives for these experiments so no need to reduce further. Thanks for the advice, I'll look into Dektol.

Doremus Scudder · Jan 12, 2020

MattKing said:
I'm assuming "use a smaller format" isn't the solution you were looking for.

There's the best answer. Use the fastest film you can get your hands on in the smallest format you can manage if you want more grain. Shoot with a wide-angle lens and crop severely if you need a smaller format than you actually have. Develop in an acutance developer or print developer or even lith developer. Don't use solvent developers like D-76 or Xtol, since they smooth out the grain by dissolving away the edges.

If you need an even grittier look, you might try temperature shocking the film during processing to induce reticulation.

Best,

Doremus

warden · Jan 12, 2020

BSP said:
Underexposing + overdeveloping in Rodinal gives me all the grain I can handle.

I'm trying to keep close to box speed, not looking for the pushed film look.

warden · Jan 12, 2020

Doremus Scudder said:
There's the best answer. Use the fastest film you can get your hands on in the smallest format you can manage if you want more grain. Shoot with a wide-angle lens and crop severely if you need a smaller format than you actually have. Develop in an acutance developer or print developer or even lith developer. Don't use solvent developers like D-76 or Xtol, since they smooth out the grain by dissolving away the edges.

If you need an even grittier look, you might try temperature shocking the film during processing to induce reticulation.

Best,

Doremus

Wide/crop 35mm film is exactly what I'm doing now, which makes sense but I'd like to go a step further than what I'm seeing currently. I'll look into temperature shock, thanks!

Bill Burk · Jan 12, 2020

I used half frame 35mm. I got a Samurai which pulls film vertically and I tape the film can with foil to encode 250 speed for Tri-X.

An Olympus Pen would be a lot of fun to shoot as well. But then you will tend to see pictures in a vertical format (better for magazine covers but might not feel familiar).

Then I develop in Dektol 1:9

Doremus Scudder · Jan 12, 2020

Do a search on reticulation and see if that's something you can intentionally and reliably reproduce time-after-time.

BTW, what film are you using? There must be some off-brand high-speed film that has monster grain out there somewhere.

Best of luck.

warden · Jan 12, 2020

koraks said:
That's going to be tough. Grain is to a large extent inherent to the film. So the obvious choice would be to get some Delta3200 and enjoy its significant grain.
But if it needs to òe HP5+, I'm with the other posters. Get a nice and active developer like paper developer, or plain old rodinal. Patrick Gainer's vitamin C developer formula also gives rather emphasized grain. Heck, even pyrocat with extended development gives some pretty obvious grain with HP5+. Whatever you do, just develop liberally and grain will grow up to a certain point. I'd only forego the xtol as it tends to give somewhat less grainy negatives (which is exactly why I like it!)

I do love D23200 and P3200 as well and I could use an ND filter to control it in daylight conditions I suppose. The conditions are outdoors, sunny, mid day. I'll test a roll and crop heavily to compare to what I'm seeing with Tri-X. Thanks!

warden · Jan 12, 2020

Bill Burk said:
I used half frame 35mm. I got a Samurai which pulls film vertically and I tape the film can with foil to encode 250 speed for Tri-X.

An Olympus Pen would be a lot of fun to shoot as well. But then you will tend to see pictures in a vertical format (better for magazine covers but might not feel familiar).

Then I develop in Dektol 1:9

No more new cameras. No more new cameras. No more new cameras!

Bill Burk · Jan 12, 2020

It’s just a tool to achieve an artistic vision... in this case it’s good. But if you have a 24mm lens and can mask the viewfinder in your mind, great. I just can’t do it. A pocket instamatic also works, so does a Minox. But those require additional equipment (reels tanks).

warden · Jan 12, 2020

Bill Burk said:
It’s just a tool to achieve an artistic vision... in this case it’s good. But if you have a 24mm lens and can mask the viewfinder in your mind, great. I just can’t do it. A pocket instamatic also works, so does a Minox. But those require additional equipment (reels tanks).

I'm also lost when it comes to mentally masking the viewfinder, so I'm resigned to cropping after the fact. And that's fine, I'm trying to loosen up a bit anyway. I appreciate the advice, Bill.

MattKing · Jan 12, 2020

If you have a camera that permits you to change viewing screens, see if you can find a screen - a scratched one would probably be fine - that you can mark up for the purpose.
Be careful that marking up the screen doesn't affect the accuracy of the metering, or if it does, that you compensate for it.

Bill Burk · Jan 12, 2020

I have an idea.!

You know those auxiliary rangefinders... get a 135mm finder and put it on the hotshoe and shoot with a 24mm lens.

If you don’t have one let me know. I do and would be happy to donate it to your project.

awty · Jan 12, 2020

Send it to me I can get grain out of anything, don't even have to try too hard.
Delta 400....no worries

Dogs and Men by Paul Fitz, on Flickr

They say you cant grain up 120 Acros.....pfffft I say.

Sea shells in the mist. by Paul Fitz, on Flickr

MattKing · Jan 12, 2020

You could see if you can find some traffic surveillance film .....

mshchem · Jan 12, 2020

BSP said:
Underexposing + overdeveloping in Rodinal gives me all the grain I can handle.

+1
Sharp and grain

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 13, 2020

Would extending the development time substantially followed by an application of Barry Thornton's Bleach-Bleach-And-Monobath technique [1] on the resulting negatives give negatives with normal contrast but larger-than-normal grain?

1. http://sannyassa.co.uk/barry-thorntons-writings/

koraks · Jan 13, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Would extending the development time substantially followed by an application of Barry Thornton's Bleach-Bleach-And-Monobath technique [1] on the resulting negatives give negatives with normal contrast but larger-than-normal grain?

1. http://sannyassa.co.uk/barry-thorntons-writings/

Why complicate matters unnecessarily?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 13, 2020

koraks said:
Why complicate matters unnecessarily?

I wouldn't. The OP wants big grain.

Bikerider · Jan 13, 2020

BSP said:
Underexposing + overdeveloping in Rodinal gives me all the grain I can handle.

More dramatic - use a paper developer!

koraks · Jan 13, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I wouldn't. The OP wants big grain.

But if that's fairly easily achievable by just developing longer or using another easily available developer, wouldn't it complicate matters to include processing steps? I mean, it would make sense to try the easy options first.
I also don't see how a bleach and redevelop procedure would emphasize grain. If anything, the opposite is more likely. The exception would be a redevelopment that actually adds density, such as chromium intensification.

Hilo · Jan 13, 2020

Many good suggestions here. I would not focus on enlarging the grain of the film. One day you will be sorry you did that.

Consider getting a point light for your enlarger, or an enlarger with a point light. These give a fantastic large and sharp grain.

Otherwise get a camera that uses 110 film

Increasing grain for traditional grain films

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