Increasing dark values to black in print

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MattKing

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Sirius must live in a world with perfect dichroic filters. :smile:
Even with the head set to maximum magenta, a little bit of green light sneaks through, so there will be some effect from that.
But more importantly, increasing any exposure will change every bit of your print. Its just that you will see much less of an effect on the highlights than on the shadows when you increase the magenta exposure.
I actually advocate a magenta burn on things like the clouds. They are often way up in the over-exposed highlight part of the characteristic curve, but they still have some definition. A high contrast burn can make that more visible.
 

Pieter12

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On the matter of split grade printing which was a thread's worth quite recently, wasn't there agreement that there is nothing in a "straight" split grade that cannot be replicated by the right grade which is achieved by small adjustments possible with Y or M?

By " straight" I am referring to a split grade that does not involve any dodging and burning at separate grades. The advantage of split grade is that dodging and burning is possible at the 2 grades used?

pentaxuser

For me, one of the major advantages of split-grade printing is not having to determine out what grade to use to get the image I want.
 

GregY

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For me, one of the major advantages of split-grade printing is not having to determine out what grade to use to get the image I want.

I'm not trying to start a split grade war.... but you have to make 2 test strips, while with my BW VC head (or the color head on my Durst 138) and a fine negative i might get away with one. In my opinion, it's a matter of personal choice. But i do using staining developers...
 

Nicholas Lindan

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[split grade is] a matter of personal choice. But i do use staining developers...

There is absolutely nothing intrinsically wrong with staining developers, and there is a different look to prints made from pyro negatives. Developers affect the HD curve of film; they have to - no developer, no HD curve.

It is the over-the-top rhapsodic claims that are sometimes made for pyro that strike me as woo. Ditto split grade printing (and audio equipment (and wines (and ...))) - all fine things that sometimes fly away to cloud cuckoo land.

For some reason nobody sings illimitable praise to D-76.
 

GregY

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There is absolutely nothing intrinsically wrong with staining developers, and there is a different look to prints made from pyro negatives. Developers affect the HD curve of film; they have to - no developer, no HD curve.

It is the over-the-top rhapsodic claims that are sometimes made for pyro that strike me as woo. Ditto split grade printing (and audio equipment (and wines (and ...))) - all fine things that sometimes fly away to cloud cuckoo land.

For some reason nobody sings illimitable praise to D-76.

Nicholas i was just leaving an opening...as per your post #14.

"Split grade printing is a simple technique with more woo-woo surrounding it than any darkroom topic outside of staining developers."
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Nicholas i was just leaving an opening...as per your post #14.

"Split grade printing is a simple technique with more woo-woo surrounding it than any darkroom topic outside of staining developers."

But don't forget the postscript to #14 -

One man's woo-woo, of course, is another's deeply held belief system.
—Julia Moskin
 

GregY

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Nicholas, I don't have any deeply held beliefs about either....it's just a tool i happen to use. The prints work. That's all i really care about. I have no deep seated desire to convert anyone....
 

GregY

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Nicholas, I don't have any deeply held beliefs about either....it's just a tool i happen to use. The prints work. That's all i really care about. I have no deep seated desire to convert anyone....
 
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How long are you developing your prints? Over the years I've found that recommended development times seem to fall a little short when it comes to getting the deepest black the paper can produce. I usually develop for about twice the recommended time, and the blacks are better.

hello revdoc,

ok, but don't the highlights get darker then as well?? Till too dark.
 

Pieter12

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Paper develops to completion. If your exposure times are good, the highlights won’t get darker. I sometimes develop at 75 degrees for 5 minutes to get the deepest blacks.
 

jimjm

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If you've exposed the negative correctly for the lighting conditions and the resulting print you hope to get, you should find that you can often get the blacks as deep as you want before the highlights get too dense. I frequently have to do additional burning-in of the highlight areas to bring out additional detail, even though the shadows are sufficiently dense.
Look at the work of some accomplished printers like Tim Rudman or Bruce Barnbaum to see what's possible with a well-exposed negative.
 

koraks

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It one were to compare a split grade print to a grade 2 or 2.5 print, then one would see there is a great difference

I don't think so.

Firstly, because of how VC papers work, which shows that they don't "care" if you expose the various emulsions simultaneously or in succession.

Secondly, it can also be demonstrated empirically. Although it wasn't the focus of this post, it was a nice coincidental 'finding': https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-interesting-things-ive-been-learning.193908/
Check the 3rd set of curves, and compare the red one (grade 2) to the blue one (equal exposures for G5 and G0). They don't overlap precisely, but slightly altering the balance of the G0/G5 exposure will. @jonmon6691 didn't do this, but if you're interested (and bored enough) you could.

A split grade print as such is identical to a single grade print, provided they're matched for the same effective contrast grade. The advantages of split grade are therefore in other areas:
1: the ability to easily 'make' fractional grades
2: a workflow that involves a predictable number of test strips to approach a 'perfect' result
3: the possibility of selectively burning and dodging the separate exposures

Finally, I don't think @Nicholas Lindan's remark about 'woo-woo' was effectively insulting to anyone, let alone intended as such. He merely signaled that he finds split grade printing a contentious topic and that he doesn't recognize any 'magic' in it. That's not an insult; it's taking a perfectly reasonable position in a civilized debate.
 

snusmumriken

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@silvercloud2323 : I hope you can extract what you need from the answers above! Split-grade printing and stop baths are the two subjects guaranteed to ignite passions here on Photrio.😁

I don’t think anyone has answered this specifically:
Should I use the Ilford Multigrade below lens filter kit to extra Increase the magenta values.
No. If you think about how filters work, that will selectively pass magenta while blocking other wavelengths in the light coming through your negative. It won’t be perfect, either. So it will have the same effect as reducing the yellow exposure, but may also reduce the amount of magenta light. It definitely isn’t going to add extra magenta! It’s the balance of yellow to magenta within the overall exposure time that determines contrast.
 

Chuck_P

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On the matter of split grade printing which was a thread's worth quite recently, wasn't there agreement that there is nothing in a "straight" split grade that cannot be replicated by the right grade which is achieved by small adjustments possible with Y or M?

By " straight" I am referring to a split grade that does not involve any dodging and burning at separate grades. The advantage of split grade is that dodging and burning is possible at the 2 grades used?

pentaxuser

This is in line with Anchell in his book 'The Variable Contrast Printing Manual'.....essentially, there's nothing that split-grade printing can accomplish that single filter printing can't also accomplish. But split-grade printing offers much more control in how the shadows and high values are laid down on the paper. He indicates that it is not necessary to always use the highest or lowest contrast filter when doing split-grade printing.....I've plenty of times used it without using #5 and #00.
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Anchell ... indicates that it is not necessary to always use the highest or lowest contrast filter when doing split-grade printing.....I've plenty of times used it without using #5 and #00.

I've often thought that #00 is probably not the best 'low contrast' filter to use, what with MGIV's wonky #00 HD curve. I don't know if a #0 or even a #1 would give better control. The use of a better choice for low-contrast filter won't bring up a magic HD curve - it'll be a curve from the same-ole family of curves we all know and feel all so ambivalent about.

I think sticking with a #5 for the high contrast end may be a good idea. Doing anything of note to increase the toe and shoulder contrast is impossible without it.

Contrast and tone control with split grade dodge/burn can be summarized as

.
Less contrast​
Same contrast​
More contrast​
Make it lighter​
Dodge #5​
Dodge both​
Dodge #00​
Make it darker​
Burn #00​
Burn both​
Burn #5​

To really get contrast up may require both a #00 dodge and a #5 burn. This is decidedly a PITA, but the same conundrum is encountered in single-filter printing where the main exposure needs to be dodged and a #5 exposure needs to be burned in. Conversely for lowering contrast.

Slight control of the tone, but not the contrast, of a highlight can be done by dodging/burning the #0 exposure, ditto the shadows with the #5 exposure.

Split grade darkening or lightening a mid-tone area without changing its contrast can be a problem as the burn or dodge has to be done with both filters. Using f-stop timing is a real boon here as the burn & dodge exposures are automatically in proportion to the main #00 & #5 exposures and so burned/dodged spot maintains the same contrast.[/td][/tr]
 
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hi,

I have some question that i want to clarify for myself.

Lately I made a print and I found out that the darker values are not yet fully black.

Following the rule in 'Print';
"Expose for the highlights and control the shadows with contrast."

The enlarger's settings were: F/5.6 , 8 seconds of 120 Yellow filter ,and 13 seconds 130Magenta.

What should i do to get the dark values black? Since I used the maximum Magenta value on my enlarger, I cannot increase Magenta anymore.
Should I use the Ilford Multigrade below lens filter kit to extra Increase the magenta values. Or should i increase the exposure time i use with the magenta filter for example 16 seconds?
Lots of information and opinions here for you to digest.

Let me just add that your framing of the questions indicates an incomplete understanding of what's happening as far as contrast control of your prints goes. Fix that and you'll be just fine.

A couple of comments:

When split-grade printing as you are, it is the proportion of magenta to the proportion of yellow that determines the overall contrast of the print in addition to the total exposure time. Maximum contrast would be with maximum magenta only (i.e., with no yellow at all). Maximum softness would be with maximum yellow only (no magenta). So, your combination of magenta and yellow gives you an intermediate contrast. If you need more contrast to get satisfying blacks, you need more magenta time and, if your highlights are also too muddy after adding that, less yellow as well. Often, just increasing the time with the magenta will give you the results you want.

So, "using maximum magenta" doesn't guarantee a good black if you don't give enough exposure time, The effect of the magenta filtration depends on how much time (overall exposure) and in what proportion to the yellow exposure that is. If you "underexpose" with the magenta filtration (i.e., too little time) then you'll have trouble getting a decent black on anything but the contrastiest negatives.

The "expose for the highlights and adjust contrast for the blacks" is a good rule, but becomes a bit more complicated with split-grade printing. With split-grade printing, the highlight density is controlled (mostly) by the yellow exposure and the shadow density is controlled (mostly) by the magenta. So "expose for the highlights" becomes "find a max. yellow exposure time that gives you the best highlight density," and "adjust contrast for the blacks" becomes "find a max. magenta exposure time that gives you the low values you like." The "mostly" in parenthesis above means that if you make a large adjustment to either yellow or magenta, you'll likely have to make a small adjustment in the opposite direction for the other. Example: I want to increase my magenta exposure time by 100% because my blacks aren't anywhere close to black usually means I might have to reduce the yellow exposure by 10%-20%.

Once you understand the basic principles, it just becomes a matter of zeroing in on your goal by increasing/decreasing exposure times for yellow and magenta till you find the right combination.

To refine, then, you can burn or dodge with either yellow or magenta. Again, yellow affects highlights most, magenta the low values. The principle is pretty straightforward; it works just like finding the basic combination of yellow and magenta for the whole print, just for a smaller area of the print. So, if you have one area with weak blacks, then burn with magenta. If you have a stubborn highlight that you'd like to be a darker shade of light gray, burn with the yellow filtration. The opposite for dodging; if you have an area where the blacks are too black, dodge during the magenta exposure. An area where the highlights are too dark? Dodge during the yellow exposure. How much? That's for you to figure out.

Oh, and do give your prints full development. I like 2.5 minutes. Also, standardizing your developing time removes an unneeded variable from the equation, making things a lot easier.

Hope this helps,

Doremus
 

Pieter12

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Something to keep in mind, the paper's sensitivity to #5 or magenta filter exposure is less than its sensitivity to 00 or yellow filtration, so you really have to increase the magenta/5 exposure considerably before it starts to significantly affect the highlights.

Screen Shot 2023-02-22 at 11.45.03 AM.jpg

Screen Shot 2023-02-22 at 11.44.38 AM.jpg
 

koraks

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How different is the sensitivity when using colored LEDs?

Fundamentally.
For instance, in my LED setup, I have twice as much power on the green channel than I have on the blue channel. Yet, to get a comparable exposure on grade 0 vs. grade 5, I need to dim back the blue channel by several stops.
 

Pieter12

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Fundamentally.
For instance, in my LED setup, I have twice as much power on the green channel than I have on the blue channel. Yet, to get a comparable exposure on grade 0 vs. grade 5, I need to dim back the blue channel by several stops.

So you have purposely compensated for the paper's sensitivity, but other LED systems might vary. Your times only work with your set-up.
 

GregY

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"Your times only work with your set-up."
Pieter, isn't that generally true?
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Lots of information and opinions here for you to digest.

Let me just add that your framing of the questions indicates an incomplete understanding of what's happening as far as contrast control of your prints goes. Fix that and you'll be just fine.

...So, "using maximum magenta" doesn't guarantee a good black if you don't give enough exposure time...

Oooops. Went back and looked at my posts to this thread. In the advice to turn off yellow and make a magenta only exposure - I left out "... and make a test strip." Might explain some of the reaction...
 
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